AHC:Fastest possible industrial revolution

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
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Deleted member 67076

With whatever POD (I don't care if its Hero's steam engine or Song dynasty), create the fastest and most plausible industrial revolution.

Bonus points if it causes ancient empires to survive in modern day and isn't a OTL early industrial power like Britian or America
 
you mean fastest as in technological development (which went rather rapid OTL) or earliest start of the industrial revolution?
 

Deleted member 67076

you mean fastest as in technological development (which went rather rapid OTL) or earliest start of the industrial revolution?
Either one works. The earlier in time the better
 
From wiki
"The Industrial Revolution was the transition to new manufacturing processes that occurred in the period from about 1760 to some time between 1820 and 1840. This transition included going from hand production methods to machines, new chemical manufacturing and iron production processes, improved efficiency of water power, the increasing use of steam power and development of machine tools. The transition also included the change from wood and other bio-fuels to coal."

Ok so to become an industrial power you needed:
1) Raw materials (coal, iron, limestone) - these had to be easy to find and preferably close together.
2) An educated population - more likely to have people who could see the implications of an advance in technology
3) Demand for the products - this normally means a large middle class, those who have disposible income, but can't afford expensive hand-made stuff.
4) Lots of meanial workers - people to staff the factories etc. for low wages and horrible work conditions.

These all came together in England in the late eighteenth century.

I can't see the ancient greeks having the population or education (they lacked the developments in physics / chemistry needed). Likewise the Romans lacked the education and advances.
I don't know about China or India, but with their huge populations it was easier to just pay people to work by hand.
Most empires of old had a very small upper class and a large number of lower class, so just lacked the demand for an industrial revolution even if we gave them the skills / materials.
 

Deleted member 67076

And theres no way to make a previous condition favorable to a large educated class (middle included) and technological development?
 
And theres no way to make a previous condition favorable to a large educated class (middle included) and technological development?

Not without enormous changes that will be resisted kicking and screaming by the entrenched elites and the artisans thrown out of work by yon spinning jennies and rulers feeling that this is a threat to their power and . . .

I wouldn't say OTL was the best case scenario with a POD of "at any point in recorded history", but you need both social, technological, and economic factors to combine.

And, of course, you need to drop the aeropile in a hole so deep no one can be mislead by its worthlessness.

I believe Basileos Giorgios's Isaac's Empire (1.0) has it underway it by the 15th century for Byzantium, but that was when he was a wee lad (eighteen I think).

I do not recommend considering that as a serious sign of how fast it could happen, much as I admire his work.
 

Deleted member 67076

Dammit. Well shit! What do you need to screw over the elite and the artisans and get the ball rolling! Prevent them from getting in charge in the first place?
 
Dammit. Well shit! What do you need to screw over the elite and the artisans and get the ball rolling! Prevent them from getting in charge in the first place?

In the very least the artisans are kind of necessary to a functioning pre-industrial society, having them not be around is kind of a problem for human society in general.
 
4) Lots of meanial workers - people to staff the factories etc. for low wages and horrible work conditions.

These all came together in England in the late eighteenth century.

Yeah, nah, E.P. Thompson.

Emiseration and alienation had to be inflicted to force workers into factories—this happened as a result of the social processes of the industrial revolution, it wasn't a pre-condition.

yours,
Sam R.
 
And it might, just might, be worth comparing the lot of the average agricultural worker to the average industrial worker.

Low pay? Check.

Long hours? Check.

Unsafe conditions? Depends.
 
Early Ming Dynasty China was an excellent potential candidate. The state levied very low taxes and generally, free markets prevailed. There was a pre-existing advanced literary culture. Philosophers were rethinking the old notions of the supernatural (e.g. Neo-Confucianism). Parts of China have plentiful coal reserves. Large trading guilds had developed sophisticated markets. Even stocks and bonds had somewhat emerged around this time.

If China had to industrialize and dominate the world, it would be through this way, and not through the tired and cliched "Zheng He discovers America" scenarios.
 
Although there are other significant problems in the way, such as the total lack of a market for mass production by factories - as opposed to literal cottage industry (as a desperate attempt to scrape together enough money to make up for far too tiny fields).

Not to say it isn't better than the Zheng He scenario by a long shot, but its still there.
 
Early Ming Dynasty China was an excellent potential candidate.

China didn't have glass, this is a major stumbling block as it meant no microscopes / telescopes and no reading glasses. The latter was important as it meant that many would be scientists lost 10+ years of research cos they couldn't see clearly enough.

This change would be fundimental to the POD and would need to reach back to the Han dynasty. At this time they used glass for orniments, but it was notably different from the European / Egyptian glass being produced.
 
Government investment was important in pre-industrial industrialisation, so it might ask the question of what if instead of paying for lots of ruinous wars, countries poured their money into state-funded industrial enterprises, and spread these out across the land?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
China didn't have glass, this is a major stumbling block as it meant no microscopes / telescopes and no reading glasses. The latter was important as it meant that many would be scientists lost 10+ years of research cos they couldn't see clearly enough.

This change would be fundimental to the POD and would need to reach back to the Han dynasty. At this time they used glass for orniments, but it was notably different from the European / Egyptian glass being produced.
Are you claiming they ceased making glass ornaments? I doubt that.

You are, of course, right that Chinese glass aimed for alabaster or jade as targets, not clear crystal. How youd change that, i dont know.

I read somewhere that ?nero? Had a lens made of emerald. I dont remember details, and it might have been fiction, but if a chinese emperor had such a thing, that might be an achievable goal for chinese glass if they tried to make it transparent instead of solid/milky/opaque.

You dont need perfectly clear glass for a magnifying lens, or even reading glasses. Telescopes or microscopes, however, would need pretty clear glass.
 
Government investment was important in pre-industrial industrialisation, so it might ask the question of what if instead of paying for lots of ruinous wars, countries poured their money into state-funded industrial enterprises, and spread these out across the land?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The phrase "War is the mother of invention" comes to mind here. If Europe had been less war like would we be further ahead techologywise or behind?

- Discuss!
 
The phrase "War is the mother of invention" comes to mind here. If Europe had been less war like would we be further ahead techologywise or behind?

- Discuss!

War stimulates progress in some areas, slows it in others, and that isn't counting its ravages being just plain destructive.

I don't think this can be treated as "further ahead/behind" as if it was cut and dry.
 
I agree that China would be a good candidate. Also, Arabia. If it continues outpacing the West just as it did in the Middle Ages...
 
Arabia as in the peninsula, or as in "the Arabic speaking part of the Muslim world" in general?

And either way, the difference between the two by the end of the Middle Ages isn't that substantial - it's not as if Europe was failing to progress.
 
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