AHC: Fascist France

The Italian Fascists did, as did the Spanish and Austrian fascist regimes, while the Iron Guard in Romania heavily promoted the Orthodox Church and Metaxas’s Fourth of August regime drew heavily on the Greek Orthodox. The Nazis seem to have been unique in their anti-religious atheism (or neo-Germanic paganism).


To be fair, I don't think Mussolini's alliance with the Papacy, nor with the Italian monarchy, was precisely something he did willingly, as opposed to being forced into by circumstances. The Church was unquestionably an accepted player in the Southern (er well, Balkans) and Eastern European fascist regimes though.
 
As far as I know the only really religiously influenced Fascist movement was the Iron Guards of Romania. Mussolini's Fascism still had several influences of his time as a socialist and he had a strong socialist upbringing, ideally he wouldn't have made alliances with the church and monarchy, but he had to. Although if France is fascist and who would they necessarily have as serious ideological or national enemies the Germans.

I wonder what would happen if had a Fascist France and a Nazi Germany, or would that be impossible since one side would have to screwed in WW1 more than the other.
 

Cook

Banned
Hitler's efforts to create the public image of being a churchgoing Catholic.
Hitler never made any effort to appear as a church going catholic because he wasn’t one; he never once attended mass after leaving his mother’s home in 1905.

Since Germany was a majority protestant nation, being catholic would hardly have endeared him to the electorate; the Nazis made far more use of Martin Luther (His fervent German nationalism and rabid anti-Semitism) than they did of the Catholic church, even in Bavaria.

the Reichsconcordat negotiated between Hitler and the Catholic Church...
Not particularly surprisingly, Hitler never honoured the concord he’d signed with the catholic church; sermons were subject to review by the propaganda ministry, priests were sent to concentration camps on suspicion of anti-regime activities, party rallies were held on Sundays deliberately to conflict with church services and all church youth organizations were dissolved and members required to join the Hitler Youth. Even Christmas became Julfest with pagan overtones.
 
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Cook

Banned
Really? The guy who got his ass kicked by the Greeks was threating war with Germany?

It’s not wise to project the results of 1940 bakwards six years; during much of those six years upgrades in Italian equipment were put off because of the cost of wars in Abyssinia and Spain.

In 1934, when the Nazis assassinated Austrian Chancellor Dollfuss and threatened to invade, the German Army was just over 100,000 strong with no armour and no air force while Mussolini possessed a significantly large army and one of the largest and most modern air forces in Europe. Dollfuss was a protégé of Mussolini’s and Austria at the time was within Italy’s sphere. Traditionally the Italians had followed a very pro-British foreign policy and been very weary of and recovery of German strength.
 
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The existence of a fascist France could hypothetically lead to a German victory ITTL. Let's say that the French Republic is overthrown in coup circa. 1934 by a coalition of Right-Wing forces (including some army forces led by Petain or another Right-Wing general). Even a fascistic France would be reluctant to go to war with Germany, so it's possible that France reaches some sort of accommodation with Germany over the issue of Alsace-Lorraine. This isn't entirely fanciful - Hitler was willing to compromise with Mussolini on the subject of South Tyrol in exchange for Italy accepting the Anschluss. Going by that example, Hitler might drop his claims on Alsace-Lorraine to secure a peaceful frontier with France, which would allow him to pursue his ultimate goal - Lebensraum in the east without interference from the Western Allies.

Presumably, Alsatians in Alsace-Lorraine would be given two options: One is to stay in France and be assimilated; the other is to emigrate to Greater Germany. The Germans in South Tyrol were given this option, and the overwhelming majority of them (80%) elected to move to Germany. Considering how the Alsatians had never fully accepted their previous integration into Germany, it's unlikely that such a high percentage would elect to leave Alsace unless the French government was particularly aggressive in their attempts at Francization. Once Italy signs the Pact of Steel with Germany, chances are Italy would sign a separate set of treaties with France. Perhaps Italy would be allowed access to the Port of Djibouti, and maybe Tunisian Italians would be granted greater rights (they could also be given the option to emigrate to Libya or Italian East Africa). Italy may also receive free passage through the Suez Canal (provided that Britain agrees).

Come 1939 (if everything is still going on roughly OTL schedule), Hitler will invade Poland as his first step towards acquiring Lebensraum in the east. Britain will immediately declare war on Germany, but will be most unhappy when France refuses to follow up with a declaration of war of its own. Unless Churchill tries to bully France into joining the war, it's likely that the French State will remain neutral, freeing up large amounts of Axis manpower for eventual service on the Eastern Front and in the Balkans. I know I glazed over some things (what would Petain's France, for example, do when the Spanish Civil War takes place?) and perhaps oversimplified others, but this is just one possible scenario that played out in my head.
 
Cook said:
Not particularly surprisingly, Hitler never honoured the concord he’d signed with the catholic church; sermons were subject to review by the propaganda ministry, priests were sent to concentration camps on suspicion of anti-regime activities, party rallies were held on Sundays deliberately to conflict with church services and all church youth organizations were dissolved and members required to join the Hitler Youth. Even Christmas became Julfest with pagan overtones.

Hitler's words on Christianity, his belief in God, and all that:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Not exactly an atheist. Based on everything I've read the main "religion" of the Nazi Party was worship of the Fuhrer and the Party-State as a civic religion which is par for the course for cult of personality. As you yourself said the main reasons priests were sent to camps was for engaging in activities which were hostile to the regime. Hitler himself was VERY disparaging of the occult, Pagan practices, and any form of mysticism. In Mein Kampf writes at great length about the inferiority of the ancient Germanic tribes for failing to overthrow the Roman Empire instead preferring to heap his praise on Rome's might and power.

kingbaldrick said:
Come 1939 (if everything is still going on roughly OTL schedule), Hitler will invade Poland as his first step towards acquiring Lebensraum in the east. Britain will immediately declare war on Germany, but will be most unhappy when France refuses to follow up with a declaration of war of its own.

If you have a Fascist France would Britain even try to pressure the Germans regarding Poland in the first place? Standing up for Poland makes sense when you have France in your corner to provide (an unfortunately non-existent OTL) second front for the Germans. If France goes Fascist and starts making nice with the Nazis starting in 1934 British policy regarding the Continent will change substantially; it's entirely possible they might try to point the Fascist bloc at the USSR then sit back and make popcorn.
 

If you have a Fascist France would Britain even try to pressure the Germans regarding Poland in the first place? Standing up for Poland makes sense when you have France in your corner to provide (an unfortunately non-existent OTL) second front for the Germans. If France goes Fascist and starts making nice with the Nazis starting in 1934 British policy regarding the Continent will change substantially; it's entirely possible they might try to point the Fascist bloc at the USSR then sit back and make popcorn.


It might be more of a threat than anything else if they still go through with it. Also, I doubt the British would want the USSR dominating the continent - Churchill was just as apprehensive about Communism as he was about Fascism (if not moreso). Britain would probably try to keep France neutral, in an attempt to prevent France from being overrun by the Red Army after Hitler's defeat on the Eastern Front. Also, a Fascist France would be less concerned about expanding its borders the way Italy and Germany did, as they already had an extensive colonial empire. Fascist France will probably spend most of its time going on communist witch hunts (and purging other internal enemies), building up an internal power structure (remember, Mussolini's Italy didn't really do anything terribly ambitious foreign policy wise until fascist rule had been throughly established) and trying to maintain its grip on its colonies.

Fascism in France would be more about trying to stay out of war and retaining their empire than trying to go to war and build an empire. The consolidation of power in fascist regimes tends to be a long, difficult process. That's one of the reasons Spain remained neutral during WWII - Franco's regime was still trying to develop an internal power structure to ensure the regimes survival. Being that France had been a democratic republic for 64-years prior to the hypothetical 1934-coup, the process of de-democratization in France is likely to be very long and intensive.
 
It might be more of a threat than anything else if they still go through with it. Also, I doubt the British would want the USSR dominating the continent - Churchill was just as apprehensive about Communism as he was about Fascism (if not moreso)

I would go further, Churchill was not at all apprehensive about Fascism, he was one of it's many admirers within the Conservative Party, what he was apprehensive about was Hitler as a individual and the prospect of German Revanchism. Churchill would probably be a great fan of French Fascism and an advocate of maintaing good relations with France under such a regime (especially if French Fascism is reactionary and monarchist, in which case he will probably develop a romantic infatuation with it even stronger than the one he had with Mussolini). Churchill, however, was not destined to be be Prime Minister in any case so it's not a foregone conclusion he'll be PM in this TL.
 
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I dont think a Fascist France would necessarily be any less hostile to nazi Germany, for the same reasons that British leaders like Churchill were hostile.

... what he was apprehensive about was Hitler as a individual and the prospect of German Revanchism.

France had been burned multiple times by 'German' wars & armies. The whole point to ramming the Versailles treaty down everyones throats was to prevent Germany from challenging France again. Conservative or Fascist French leaders are not going to abruptly see Germany as their soul mate & partners. Indeed the sort of Fascist leadership that France was most likely to have might very well have acted more energetically than those in OTL. This could even lead to war in the Czech Crisis in 1938. Or conceivably a threat against the attempt at Austrian Anschluss in 37.
 
I dont think a Fascist France would necessarily be any less hostile to nazi Germany, for the same reasons that British leaders like Churchill were hostile.



France had been burned multiple times by 'German' wars & armies. The whole point to ramming the Versailles treaty down everyones throats was to prevent Germany from challenging France again. Conservative or Fascist French leaders are not going to abruptly see Germany as their soul mate & partners. Indeed the sort of Fascist leadership that France was most likely to have might very well have acted more energetically than those in OTL. This could even lead to war in the Czech Crisis in 1938. Or conceivably a threat against the attempt at Austrian Anschluss in 37.
Indeed. I think a Fascist France would continue to be an ally to Great Britain.
 

Cook

Banned
As you yourself said the main reasons priests were sent to camps was for engaging in activities which were hostile to the regime.

I think you have misunderstood what I meant there; everyone sent to the Concentration camps were being ‘placed in preventative custody for engaging in activities hostile to the Reich’. Their crime, if any, was in actually thinking they were still free to sermonize in their church.

When Goering announced the state of emergency in Prussia in 1933 he actually states that the emergency powers were so that he could root out the ‘Catholics and Communists undermining the state’.
 

Cook

Banned
I dont think a Fascist France would necessarily be any less hostile to nazi Germany, for the same reasons that British leaders like Churchill were hostile.
Actually my expectation is that not only would a Fascist France be solidly hostile towards Germany and any German efforts to revise the Treaties of Versailles and Locarno, but they’d also be a far more effective opponent to Nazi Germany and more belligerent; throughout the 1930s the French Third Republic was in an almost continuous state of political instability, unable to take decisive action either domestically or internationally. Between 1930 and 1940 France had no less than twenty-one Prime Ministers and cabinets! Hitler was able to make maximum use of the opportunities presented by the French state regularly decapitating itself; first marching into the Rhineland, then into Austria.

A Fascist France would at least provide stability of a sort and would be able to maintain a policy of firm containment, not providing Hitler with the regular windows of opportunity that he made such spectacular use of.

It all depends on when France goes Fascist (i.e. How early) and who the leading personalities are. An early fascist France could prevent the re-militarization of the Rhineland, ( a very early fascist France could prevent a French evacuation of the Rhineland), whereas a late Fascist France (deposing Blum and the Popular Front for instance) would be unable to forge an alliance with the Soviet Union, which was the only way to halt Hitler by then, and would be largely in the same boat that the republic found itself in. Worse, because it would propably be involved in a civil war.



Indeed. I think a Fascist France would continue to be an ally to Great Britain.
While they consulted closely during the twenties and thirties, Britain and France had no formal relationship outside of the undertakings of the Treaty of Locarno and the League of Nations; they were not actually allied. Many in Britain were more suspicious of France than of Germany even after Hitler had come to power. The Times (considered to be the mouthpiece of the government at the time) in an editorial in July 1934 said:

‘In the years that are coming, there is more reason to fear for Germany than to fear Germany.’

 
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While they consulted closely during the twenties and thirties, Britain and France had no formal relationship outside of the undertakings of the Treaty of Locarno and the League of Nations; they were not actually allied. Many in Britain were more suspicious of France than of Germany even after Hitler had come to power. The Times (considered to be the mouthpiece of the government at the time) in an editorial in July 1934 said:

‘In the years that are coming, there is more reason to fear for Germany than to fear Germany.’

to add to that, in the years immediatly following WW1, the british air defense plans for the home countries were aparently largely based on a potential attack by the french.
 

Cook

Banned
to add to that, in the years immediatly following WW1, the british air defense plans for the home countries were aparently largely based on a potential attack by the french.
That’s shouldn’t be surprising, nor is it paranoia; to attack Britain with an aircraft in the 1920s you need to take off from either France or the small part of Belgium that is within range. (Which is what the German Gothas did in WW1). That was still largely the case in World War Two and the air defences of the British Isles were evolved and enlarged versions of those early RAF plans.
 
to add to that, in the years immediatly following WW1, the British air defense plans for the home countries were aparently largely based on a potential attack by the french.

If anyone doubts that, take a look at the locations of the 'Chain Home' long range radar stations built in the late 1930s. They are primarily oriented south across the Channel, facing France. South England is where the bulk of the air defense stations were located as well. When all this was replanned in the mid 1930s absolutely no one could conceive of a German army taking over Flanders & Normandy, let alone of the German air force large enough to threaten the UK. Those fears of the Germans came long after the 'modern' upgraded air defense of the UK had been planned out and the establishment of the airfields, depots, HQ, communications, and radar was all well underway.
 
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