AHC: Farthest East WAllies can go.
- Thread starter Redcoat
- Start date
The Polish Soviet border due to the Soviet losing at Kursk, leading to a bloody stalemate on the Eastern front.
The Eastern front is further away in 1944 delaying reenforcements to France and Italy.
Patton achives a break through and goes around Berlin and drives to cut off the Eastern front.
The Eastern front is further away in 1944 delaying reenforcements to France and Italy.
Patton achives a break through and goes around Berlin and drives to cut off the Eastern front.
1. Less material to the USSR, automobiles & railway equipment. That may make the Red Army offensives in less depth but still bleeding away the German ground forces.
2. Red Army doctrine develops in a inferior direction. Attrition of the German army is still heavy but less depth to the Red Army offensives.
3. The battles of 1942 & early 43 are more in the Germans favor, the Red Army as we know it has a more difficult task in 1943-44 as the Germans start stronger in the winter/spring of 43.
4. The Western Allies invade west Europe in 1942 or 43, cross the Rhine in 1944, ect... This could be in conjunction with #1. Perhaps the west Allies send less to the USSR in 1943 in order to build a larger offensive force in the UK.
2. Red Army doctrine develops in a inferior direction. Attrition of the German army is still heavy but less depth to the Red Army offensives.
3. The battles of 1942 & early 43 are more in the Germans favor, the Red Army as we know it has a more difficult task in 1943-44 as the Germans start stronger in the winter/spring of 43.
4. The Western Allies invade west Europe in 1942 or 43, cross the Rhine in 1944, ect... This could be in conjunction with #1. Perhaps the west Allies send less to the USSR in 1943 in order to build a larger offensive force in the UK.
If the Wallies do better in the West the Germans send more forces there which leads to the Soviets doing better in the East, more or less it's the same outcome because how do you fight a war in the East when all of your war industry is taken?
Moscow in a Soviet Union has fallen and we are picking up the radioactive pieces of Europe scenario.
Change in TL: The HE177 is designed in a standard non dive bombing 4 engine configuration from the get go. It sees operational deployment starting in September 1942 (many were built OTL, but few were used)
In September 1942, same day as Hitler fires Halder, Goering looking to cheer up Hitler, talks up the new bomber and states that it can from the bases they currently have, destroy Soviet industry, and attack Allied convoys. Hitler is a little concerned that Goering is boasting, but he needs any easy way out of his current situation.
On September 25th, Hitler announces a defensive strategy, two panzer divisions are transferred from army group A to a reserve right behind Stalingrad. Further attacks on Stalingrad or toward Grozny are halted. HE 177 attacks begin on Soviet industry.
The Soviets counter attack like OTL, but the Germans do better, still retreat, avoid the Stalingrad encirclement, the Italian 8th army in the east is able to retreat intact.
In the med, the Germans, without Stalingrad and more JU52s available to fly in supplies, and the Allies dealing with a bit higher shipping losses, do better in Tunisia February-April 43. But by May 15th the shipping and transport losses are annoying to the point an evacuation is ordered. Night runs by destroyers and night flights by JU52s pull out tens of thousands of the best combat troops. These are used to form new combat extra divisions in Sicily, with equipment not used for an offensive at Kursk.
The Allies decide not to invade Sicily in 1943 and go all in for Overload in 1944 (perhaps doing a little more in the central Pacific in late 43).
The Germans have committed to holding Southern Europe and the Eastern front for political reasons (the Nikopol mines for example are deemed critical) and so the forces in France are about OTL.
The Allies commit everything to a cross channel invasion in 1944. With no Anzio and a more constrained 1944 Pacific plan. The Allies do a Normandy invasion, but add a division sized diversionary attack on the north coast of the Breton peninsula which greatly helps the pace of the advance.
Even though the Germans are pushed back to their border, Hitler can't pull troops out of Southern Europe for fear of Mussolini leaving and can't pull from the east for fear of losing Ploesti and Nikopol and Estonian shale oil.
Hitler shoots himself in Berlin July 1945, Warsaw rises, the Slovak national army rises, the Hungarians and Romanians and Bulgarians switch sides, the Allies rush in and even fly in reinforcements for these, the Allies end in Warsaw, Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia, Prauge.
In September 1942, same day as Hitler fires Halder, Goering looking to cheer up Hitler, talks up the new bomber and states that it can from the bases they currently have, destroy Soviet industry, and attack Allied convoys. Hitler is a little concerned that Goering is boasting, but he needs any easy way out of his current situation.
On September 25th, Hitler announces a defensive strategy, two panzer divisions are transferred from army group A to a reserve right behind Stalingrad. Further attacks on Stalingrad or toward Grozny are halted. HE 177 attacks begin on Soviet industry.
The Soviets counter attack like OTL, but the Germans do better, still retreat, avoid the Stalingrad encirclement, the Italian 8th army in the east is able to retreat intact.
In the med, the Germans, without Stalingrad and more JU52s available to fly in supplies, and the Allies dealing with a bit higher shipping losses, do better in Tunisia February-April 43. But by May 15th the shipping and transport losses are annoying to the point an evacuation is ordered. Night runs by destroyers and night flights by JU52s pull out tens of thousands of the best combat troops. These are used to form new combat extra divisions in Sicily, with equipment not used for an offensive at Kursk.
The Allies decide not to invade Sicily in 1943 and go all in for Overload in 1944 (perhaps doing a little more in the central Pacific in late 43).
The Germans have committed to holding Southern Europe and the Eastern front for political reasons (the Nikopol mines for example are deemed critical) and so the forces in France are about OTL.
The Allies commit everything to a cross channel invasion in 1944. With no Anzio and a more constrained 1944 Pacific plan. The Allies do a Normandy invasion, but add a division sized diversionary attack on the north coast of the Breton peninsula which greatly helps the pace of the advance.
Even though the Germans are pushed back to their border, Hitler can't pull troops out of Southern Europe for fear of Mussolini leaving and can't pull from the east for fear of losing Ploesti and Nikopol and Estonian shale oil.
Hitler shoots himself in Berlin July 1945, Warsaw rises, the Slovak national army rises, the Hungarians and Romanians and Bulgarians switch sides, the Allies rush in and even fly in reinforcements for these, the Allies end in Warsaw, Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia, Prauge.
Shadow Master
Banned
Ok, as far east as possible.
The US/UK send troops as well as LL into the north, Finland is offered choice of joining the allies, with stipulated return to 1938 border with USSR, and economic aid and post war alliance with the US/UK to ensure independence, in exchange Finland allows allied forces to attack Norway, driving the Germans south of Narvik, thus cutting off Germany from the Iron ore shipments. Liberating Norway and using it as a base, the German Uboats are targeted from both sides of the north sea, with ASW naval forces and aircraft being able to hunt the entire North Sea, which might greatly lessen merchant shipping losses across the Atlantic, as well as preventing virtually any attacks against the arctic convoys.
In order to get the allies help, Stalin has to agree to a "Norway first" plan, and is forced to agree to the condition of no boarder adjustments unless by unanimous agreement by the victorious powers (UK, USA, USSR) in any part f Europe.
So there would not be a "Western Front" in this ATL, but rather a combined front attacking from the east.
Any thoughts?
In October 1944 Eisenhower met with Devers the 6th Army Group commander. Devers made a serious effort to persuade Ike that with sufficient support the 6th AG could cross the Rhine below Strasberg & establish a deep lodgment in late Oct & November. The amount of fuel, ammunition, and additional combat units Devers stipulated for this operation looked like it would leave the 12th AG with continuing shortages, and regulate the US 3rd Army to a supporting role covering the 6th AG flank. Ike rejected this & Devers was directed to concentrate on clearing the Vosges/Colmar pocket & prepare for a broad front crossing of the Rhine later in the winter.
I've gamed this out a half dozen times and found its not that difficult to get the 6th AG across the Rhine in 1944. After that its not clear how much it aids the general defeat of Germany.