The obvious colonizers of the Pacific are neither China nor Japan. It's Indonesia and the Phillipines. These places already have developed maritime traditions and they have the fractured political landscape that encouraged European states to export their conflicts overseas. The only problem is that I don't really see what they'd want in Australia or America. America was OTL conquered because Spain needed gold to prosecute its wars. East Asia wasn't exactly lacking for it. Maybe an Indonesian colonial power could use Chilean silver to flood the Chinese market to get at all the manufactured goodies?
AHC : Europe and Asia swap places in history, Asia-centric world
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New Zealand would certainly become a colony of settlement and if it were colonized by a Chinese Kingdom or by a unified China itself or by Japan and even a unified and strong Korea, New Zealand in 2022 would be a country with tens of millions of inhabitants, perhaps with 50 or 60 million people and a GDP per capita similar to New Zealand would make one of the biggest players in this ATL world.
Countries with large populations of Yellow immigrants such as the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina and South Africa would be very afraid of the immigration of Europeans in the 19th and 20th century if there would be talk of the "white danger" and laws of immigrant quotas and restrictions against white immigration mainly in North America in the Southern Cone and in South Africa; Australia and New Zealand would not be so afraid and prejudiced because of the physical distance from Europe.
Countries with large populations of Yellow immigrants such as the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Argentina and South Africa would be very afraid of the immigration of Europeans in the 19th and 20th century if there would be talk of the "white danger" and laws of immigrant quotas and restrictions against white immigration mainly in North America in the Southern Cone and in South Africa; Australia and New Zealand would not be so afraid and prejudiced because of the physical distance from Europe.
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The New World of the White Huns
The New World of the White Huns I highly recommend first reading The Rise of the White Huns first, before reading this thread. This is the sequel thread, which picks up roughly in the year 1104, when the adventurer Bjorn Solva discovers the continent which will ultimately come to bear his...
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It doesn't have everything you want but does have Asians colonizing the Americas and been extremely powerful.
I think there would be some cities or regions in Europe populated by Chinese maybe some city in Ireland or Great Britain possibly some enclave in the Iberian peninsula or in Italy similar to Hong Kong and Macau ATTL.
The Chinese colonized South America in the 15th century, The discovery of large amounts of gold in Peru would take thousands of Chinese in an attempt to get rich the diseases spread by the explorers would kill thousands of people in the Inca empire and this would weaken the Incas, there would be many marriages mixed between Han Chinese men and Native American women.
As the population was growing and more and more migrants in China were moving to South America in the following centuries the colonization would spread to the interior of the continent such as the Amazon River source in Peru and terrets through the Panama isthmus.
in the 1480s 1490 Chinese ships crossed the Magellanic Strait and reached the Atlantic part of the continent around that time they founded small villages at the mouth of the Plata River.
As the population was growing and more and more migrants in China were moving to South America in the following centuries the colonization would spread to the interior of the continent such as the Amazon River source in Peru and terrets through the Panama isthmus.
in the 1480s 1490 Chinese ships crossed the Magellanic Strait and reached the Atlantic part of the continent around that time they founded small villages at the mouth of the Plata River.
In the early 1400s, China sent a huge fleet out on 7 expeditions -
en.wikipedia.org
[OTL] These voyages ended after the 7th, in 1433, largely due to a faction within the empire that opposed the emperor's extravagant spending.
[POD] The voyages continue.
I'm not very well-versed in this area, so this is all handwavium and speculation about what might be plausible:
- China develops a network of trade, tributary states, and competitors in SE Asia and the Indian Ocean.
- Further voyages "discover" distant lands to the east. To the south, they explore the coast of Australia and reach New Zealand.
- To the northeast, their "Columbus" finds his way across the Bering Strait and brings back tales of a vast land with rich fisheries and hunting, and natives who are "even less civilized than the Ainu".
- Exploration of this new land discovers an nearly endless coastline, reaching south into warmer climes. By 1492, there are Chinese settlements dotted down the coast to Central America.
- Meanwhile, the pressure of the Chinese expansion changes the course of south Asia. With more conflict, their advances in technology, militaries, etc. come closer to keeping pace with Europe.
- A number of small Indian kingdoms also form trade networks and establish outposts and settlements in East Africa. When Portugal rounds the Cape of Good Hope, they find a strong Asian presence.
So, by 1500, Asia is in a position to compete with Europe in both the Americas and Africa. There's a million maybes still to sort out, and some more centuries to write, but I think this gets them started in the right direction.
Ming treasure voyages - Wikipedia
[OTL] These voyages ended after the 7th, in 1433, largely due to a faction within the empire that opposed the emperor's extravagant spending.
[POD] The voyages continue.
I'm not very well-versed in this area, so this is all handwavium and speculation about what might be plausible:
- China develops a network of trade, tributary states, and competitors in SE Asia and the Indian Ocean.
- Further voyages "discover" distant lands to the east. To the south, they explore the coast of Australia and reach New Zealand.
- To the northeast, their "Columbus" finds his way across the Bering Strait and brings back tales of a vast land with rich fisheries and hunting, and natives who are "even less civilized than the Ainu".
- Exploration of this new land discovers an nearly endless coastline, reaching south into warmer climes. By 1492, there are Chinese settlements dotted down the coast to Central America.
- Meanwhile, the pressure of the Chinese expansion changes the course of south Asia. With more conflict, their advances in technology, militaries, etc. come closer to keeping pace with Europe.
- A number of small Indian kingdoms also form trade networks and establish outposts and settlements in East Africa. When Portugal rounds the Cape of Good Hope, they find a strong Asian presence.
So, by 1500, Asia is in a position to compete with Europe in both the Americas and Africa. There's a million maybes still to sort out, and some more centuries to write, but I think this gets them started in the right direction.
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Factions in the Ming government did oppose the voyages, yes, but it's worth noting that the Hongwu Emperor himself "regarded overseas exchange as a corrupting influence on his own officials, and, in part for that reason, he ensured that it suffered crippling disabilities"[1] and imposed the first seaban 3 years after founding the Ming dynasty. And the seabans and the lack of effective enforcement established a large black market that local officials had immense interest in maintaining, which meant reform was difficult at best.In the early 1400s, China sent a huge fleet out on 7 expeditions -
Ming treasure voyages - Wikipedia
[OTL] These voyages ended after the 7th, in 1433, largely due to a faction within the empire that opposed the emperor's extravagant spending.
[POD] The voyages continue.
I'm not very well-versed in this area, so this is all handwavium and speculation about what might be plausible:
- China develops a network of trade, tributary states, and competitors in SE Asia and the Indian Ocean.
- Further voyages "discover" distant lands to the east. To the south, they explore the coast of Australia and reach New Zealand.
- To the northeast, their "Columbus" finds his way across the Bering Strait and brings back tales of a vast land with rich fisheries and hunting, and natives who are "even less civilized than the Ainu".
- Exploration of this new land discovers an nearly endless coastline, reaching south into warmer climes. By 1492, there are Chinese settlements dotted down the coast to Central America.
- Meanwhile, the pressure of the Chinese expansion changes the course of south Asia. With more conflict, their advances in technology, militaries, etc. come closer to keeping pace with Europe.
- A number of small Indian kingdoms also form trade networks and establish outposts and settlements in East Africa. When Portugal rounds the Cape of Good Hope, they find a strong Asian presence.
So, by 1500, Asia is in a position to compete with Europe in both the Americas and Africa. There's a million maybes still to sort out, and some more centuries to write, but I think this gets them started in the right direction.
The Ming dynasty disparaged foreign trade from the onset and the Yongle's ambitions were an exception to that, not the rule. Increasing nomadic aggression on the northern border and the need to bolster the garrisons there would've given traditional Confucian factions in court, corrupt officials, and a less outward thinking emperor sufficient excuse to revert back to the old ways at some point.
Plus, why would exploration necessitate settlement? The Ming and Qing dynasties pushed for autarky while the Song, despite their mercantile prowess, did not colonize SE Asia on an official basis. People from southern China did migrate into SE Asia, but that was of their own accord. On a general basis though, China, Korea, and Japan maintained closed border policies in large part to maintain stability. Mass exploration and colonization runs counter to that effort to keep a nation's citizens in its borders and outsiders out.
While the Europeans had religious zeal and the financial incentive of cheaper trade with Asian powers as their motivation for exploration, settlement, and conquest, what factors can drive Asian colonization to even close to the same extent? None of the east Asian nations had a proselytizing faith and they already had long established trade routes with India and SE Asia, which combined with East Asia made and makes up at least 3/4th of the world population for most of world history. There's not the financial incentive to try and find a route across the Pacific when there's not already a promise of massive returns. And even then, there was still plenty of land to settle much closer to home (Taiwan, Manchuria weren't heavily settled by the Han Chinese until the 1600s and 1800s respectively, and there's also SE Asia) than the New World.
As for conflict, India and SE Asia were hardly peaceful or unified, and yet that didn't stop the kingdoms of both being subjugated by European powers. And there were Indian settlements in East Africa dating back to the 12th century. Again, that didn't save any of them from colonization.
[1] https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.n...hJi1mnYXmw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA
I've thought of doing a TL where Japan doesn't isolate itself but instead becomes a major colonial power, taking the North American west coast and Australia/New Zealand, but I've already got two active projects and know next to nothing about Japanese history or culture. Does anyone know of any TL's with a similar premise?
I've had the idea of a Japanese warlord pulling an Alexander the Great on China in the 16th century, causing a Sino-Japanese Diadochi period. It's a bit late to fully reverse Europe and East Asia, tho'.
It's strongly hinted at in my own TL, but that has a supercharged indigenous civilisation on the West Coast that would obviously draw attention. Although I'd love to do a "minimal" version with a more realistic Japanese setup (it would probably use the same PODs) and with the American Indians portrayed as their OTL archaeological equivalents. A metis-type culture formed from ronin, fishermen, jade merchants, etc. who followed some hybrid of whatever Buddhist sects showed up and indigenous spirituality would be pretty fascinating to write. It's too bad that they'd inevitably get screwed over by the Japanese sooner or later given that seems the fate of nearly all metis cultures.
I didn't say it was likely. Only that it seems like a potential POD for getting to the results OP laid out.
I think that a divided China and a very strong Korea could better balance the powers in Asia and boost the colonization of the world.