AHC - English thalassocracy of outer Europe

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Have multiple (2 or more) larger island landmasses around Europe come under enduring English rule for multiple centuries:

Qualifying islands may include but are not limited to:

Zealand-Copenhagen, Denmark

Sicily

Sardinia

Corsica

All Balearics

Crete

Cyprus

All Aegean islands (Cyclades plus Dodecanese at least)
 
Balearics are probably the easiest as they controlled Minorca IOTL.
A different outcome of the Corsican Crisis could conceivably make Corsica a British protectorate. In a Napoleonic victory scenario, Sicily and Sardinia, while having their own kings, are quite possibly going to end up under British protection and overall control.
 
Going for a rather early POD we can have a more centralized/loyal Norman culture, with the de Hautevilles focusing on Sicily and skipping over to the Baleares from there. Too ASB?
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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I don't know, maybe Norman connections could work.

As an alternative, how about a Harald Hardrada takeover of England.

England remains in the Scandinavian orbit rather than Norman French.

But, England will become the larger partner, and have fiefs or claims in Denmark and Norway. If England has an alt version of the Hundred Years War (a war for for a European domain), England could have a much better chance of winning if the fight is in Denmark and Norway (and perhaps ultimately Sweden and the Baltic shores) than if it is trying to take over France.

Perhaps Scandinavia ultimately becomes a set of territories tied to England for centuries like Scotland or Ireland, perhaps with Anglo-Saxon (with copious Norse influences) as the lingua franca?
 
As an alternative, how about a Harald Hardrada takeover of England.

England remains in the Scandinavian orbit rather than Norman French.

But, England will become the larger partner, and have fiefs or claims in Denmark and Norway. If England has an alt version of the Hundred Years War (a war for for a European domain), England could have a much better chance of winning if the fight is in Denmark and Norway (and perhaps ultimately Sweden and the Baltic shores) than if it is trying to take over France.

Perhaps Scandinavia ultimately becomes a set of territories tied to England for centuries like Scotland or Ireland, perhaps with Anglo-Saxon (with copious Norse influences) as the lingua franca?

I'm not so certain of Scandinavia becoming quite as tied to England as Scotland or Ireland since they're a little ways off, but I do agree that a non-Normanized England would likely look more to the North Sea in its interactions AND overtake the Danes, Swedes, etc. by sheer dint of population and wealth. In other words, Scandinavia would fall into England's orbit instead of the other way 'round.

Anyway, technically the OP was kinda achieved in OTL with English/British control of Minorca, Gibraltar, Heligoland (IIRC), Malta and de facto Crete by the 19th. Century. On top of that, a weakened Denmark might see them turned into a client state like potentially Sardinia could I think. I'd suggest Iceland could as well, depending on the timeframe.
 
What Christian rite did Harald Hadrada followed? Especially since I've looked him up and it was revealed that at one point he offered his services to Kievan Rus and Byzantium. An England that has a presence in Scandinavia would be nice, but would Harald Hadrada be the king of both England and Norway?
 
A much easier way to get a Viking England than having Harald Hadrdrada conquer it would be to simply keep Canute's dynasty in power. He did rule England and Denmark and Norway - but his empire fell apart shortly after his death, neither of his sons having the ability to keep it together (or even keep themselves alive.) Perhaps having Harold Harefoot or Harthacanute being more intelligent is the PoD you need?
 
A much easier way to get a Viking England than having Harald Hadrdrada conquer it would be to simply keep Canute's dynasty in power. He did rule England and Denmark and Norway - but his empire fell apart shortly after his death, neither of his sons having the ability to keep it together (or even keep themselves alive.) Perhaps having Harold Harefoot or Harthacanute being more intelligent is the PoD you need?

Perhaps this empire survives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Empire

This would have had a huge potential if it survived though.
 
Imagine if Cnut's successors DID make a strong North-Sea Empire...needless to say, William the Bastard probably wouldn't be nearly as successful in taking England under such circumstances. And really, what could the Continentals even do about it? It's almost like there'd be three main "empires" in Europe if this works out and we include the Byzantines and HRE.
 
Imagine if Cnut's successors DID make a strong North-Sea Empire...needless to say, William the Bastard probably wouldn't be nearly as successful in taking England under such circumstances. And really, what could the Continentals even do about it? It's almost like there'd be three main "empires" in Europe if this works out and we include the Byzantines and HRE.

Yeah, three empires. Although I'm not sure if Kievan Rus' would count though. However, England only became Catholic during William the Would-Be Conqueror, so was there a possibility that the North Sea Empire could have been Christian of a different Rite?
 
Yeah, three empires. Although I'm not sure if Kievan Rus' would count though. However, England only became Catholic during William the Would-Be Conqueror, so was there a possibility that the North Sea Empire could have been Christian of a different Rite?

Even so, there's at least the potential for four such empires if we include the Kievan Rus (hopefully less beset by the Mongols if such were to be possible). I suppose an early equivalent of the Church of England (a "North-Sea Church"?) could arise given how recently the Scandinavians converted to Christianity for political reasons. The main speedbump would likely be England itself, although even then I think there was enough doubt about the Roman rite in Scotland and Wales (effectively members of the NSE anyway) that in a century or so another church could arise. And the funny thing is, the NSE has the potential of warding off Continental armies if they stay sufficiently tied together.

Now I'm getting withdrawal pangs from Redbeard's excellent Kingdom of the North TL :(.
 
Yeah, but what Rite would the North Sea Church follow though? A lot of Vikings did serve in Byzantium and I suspect that they might pass through Rus'. Even so, I'd like to see an Orthodox North Sea though.
 
I think a case could be made for a sort-of Orthodox rite to arise in the NSE, after all there's the fact that a bunch of Norse fought for the Byzantine Varangians. And the Swedish contact with Kievan Rus might play a role in the church's development as well, especially if relations develop between the North Sea and the Continent as consistently antagonistic for a long period of time. What would it look like? I'm not sure, but I can imagine potential differences in the Easter date as well as minutia of ceremony (no conducting sermons in Latin, for example).
 
Plus Cnut would be tempted to side with Constantinople if he was given the right to make his Church independent instead of having to take orders from the Pope.
 
Actually, Roman Catholicism was brought to Britain by St Augustine, and by our period England was basically pro-Rome. Plus, there wouldn't be much impetus to convert to Orthodoxy, would there? The reason all these Vikings converted was because the local rulers wanted them to, and it is always going to be more advantageous for them to have relations with France and the HRE than with a country mired in constant internecine conflict or a distant relic of the Roman Empire that's got too many of its own problems to be of any use as an ally for Scandinavia or England.

Plus, it will take a massive amount of skill and charisma to hold together three disparate kingdoms for more than a couple of generations. Even if Harthacnut lives to a ripe old age and is an ASB-Super-King, he's got three potential successors: Edward the Confessor, who was a puppet of the nobility; his nephew Aelfwine Haroldsson, who was a bloody MONK in OTL; and Sweyn Estridssen. Then Sweyn's OTL descendants fought for generations over Denmark, etc etc etc...

Essentially, we need Cnut the Great to reincarnate until such a time as two places separated by several hundred miles of chilly sea have developed some sort of national identity and a workable system of government.

The easiest answer would be to take the British Empire, add the rest of the Balearics, maybe a Mandate of Cyprus after WW1, an Anglo-Corsican Kingdom and an insanely ambitious Nelson seizing the whole of Zealand in the course of disabling the Danish Navy.
 
Essentially, we need Cnut the Great to reincarnate until such a time as two places separated by several hundred miles of chilly sea have developed some sort of national identity and a workable system of government.

More the latter than the former. Trying to rule multiple realms means no one of them is going to get as much attention as if one had just one.
 
More the latter than the former. Trying to rule multiple realms means no one of them is going to get as much attention as if one had just one.

So split the realm among the offspring of the ruling king? That is a great idea though, but if done properly of course. Otherwise, fratricidal conflicts would erupt.
 
The English could take any of the Mediterranean islands during the Crusades especially if they show up late and decide not to go home empty handed. Crete is a good possibility but it would put them in conflict with Venice.
 
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