AHC: English kings continue to hold land in France

With a POD after Richard I's ascension to the throne, find a way for the English to preserve their holdings on the continent until after 1453. Calais does not count - we're looking at for instance, Gascony.

Automatic failure if this involves the Plantagenets taking the throne of France (we're looking at English authority over part of what is now France, not Plantagenet France). France breaking up into separate duchies that refuse to acknowledge royal authority and/or being divided by between England and the HRE is also grounds for automatic failure (we already have timelines covering that).
 

Philip

Donor
Are you looking for the English king to remain a vassal of the French king, at least in regards to his French lands?
 
Not specifically. If that's a good way for that to happen, that works just fine - I'm just looking for a way English kings hold land in the area of France for purposes of the challenge.

If they can do that without being vassals, that would be nice, but it seems far more difficult.
 
Would Brittany count?

If so let's have Edward III's first wife die c1336 and he remarries Joanna of Dreux daughter of the Count of Penthievre and John III of Brittany's niece.

Edward then has a valid claim when John III dies. Let's assume he wins it.

If things proceed much as OTL with Richard II but lacking the Houses of York and Lancaster, therefore the House of Brittany has the better claim and so England and Brittany are merged.

(of course I'm ignoring some political ramifications but we can discuss those if this scenario fits the OP)
 
Would Brittany count?

Sure. If you can establish it as a Plantagenet duchy its as legitimate as Gascony or Normandy or any of the other things that usually come to mind.

It doesn't quite meet the "English holdings" (except maybe in a scenario involving Arthur son of Geoffrey son of Henry II) definition in the strictest sense - no English king held it to my knowledge OTL (maybe Henry V for a short while?) - but I'm interested enough to want to hear more.

If so let's have Edward III's first wife die c1336 and he remarries Joanna of Dreux daughter of the Count of Penthievre and John III of Brittany's niece.

Edward then has a valid claim when John III dies. Let's assume he wins it.

If things proceed much as OTL with Richard II but lacking the Houses of York and Lancaster, therefore the House of Brittany has the better claim and so England and Brittany are merged.

(of course I'm ignoring some political ramifications but we can discuss those if this scenario fits the OP)

Interesting.

I'm all ears (eyes).
 
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Philip

Donor
Would Brittany count?
If so let's have Edward III's first wife die c1336 and he remarries Joanna of Dreux daughter of the Count of Penthievre and John III of Brittany's niece.
I had a similar idea where the Black Prince would marry Jeanne of Brittany, daughter of John IV. (John V falls off a horse, gets hit by a meteorite, dies childless or some such.) Yours seems a bit more interesting.
 
Sure. If you can establish it as a Plantagenet duchy its as legitimate as Gascony or Normandy or any of the other things that usually come to mind.

It doesn't quite meet the "English holdings" (except maybe in a scenario involving Arthur son of Geoffrey son of Henry II) definition in the strictest sense - no English king held it to my knowledge OTL (maybe Henry V for a short while?) - but I'm interested enough to want to hear more.



Interesting.

I'm all ears (eyes).

Ooops misread that "holdings" part :eek:.

Political issues:

1) Would John III agree to the marriage in the first place as he's pro French?
2) If so would he support the hated English King over his hated halfbrother John of Montfort?
3) Edward is just about to restart the HYW. Would he delay? Arguably John could push for Breton neutrality as his price for the marriage.
4) What would the Breton nobles do?

Assuming that despite Edward being Duke of Brittany the HYW goes roughly as OTL incl the Battle of Poitiers I can a substantially different Treaty of Bretigny given that he wouldn't give up suzerainty of Brittany.
 
Ooops misread that "holdings" part :eek:.

Quite okay. The real point of this is "can England hold anything on the continent, or is an English presence impossible given that France is larger and stronger?" If that means acquiring territory it didn't hold OTL, that's okay.

Political issues:

1) Would John III agree to the marriage in the first place as he's pro French?
2) If so would he support the hated English King over his hated halfbrother John of Montfort?
3) Edward is just about to restart the HYW. Would he delay? Arguably John could push for Breton neutrality as his price for the marriage.
4) What would the Breton nobles do?

Assuming that despite Edward being Duke of Brittany the HYW goes roughly as OTL incl the Battle of Poitiers I can a substantially different Treaty of Bretigny given that he wouldn't give up suzerainty of Brittany.
Interesting. Would that treaty be more likely to be kept than OTL, or is that another difficulty?
 
I had a similar idea where the Black Prince would marry Jeanne of Brittany, daughter of John IV. (John V falls off a horse, gets hit by a meteorite, dies childless or some such.) Yours seems a bit more interesting.

Why thankee.
My way we get a Plantagenet Brittany and no War of the Roses :cool:.
Or perhaps we get a War of the Furs instead between the Houses of Coucy and Brittany :D (assuming Isabella is still married to Enguerrand VII of Coucy)
Feel free to nab it and run!
 
Hmmm, rechecking my facts it seems the French King Philip restarted things to regain Gascony and the French fleet ruled the waves until their disaster at Sluys. Ah well.

Also need to factor in Bertrand du Guesclin who fought for Charles de Blois in the Breton Succession. Would he fight for Edward? If so then Charles II of Navarre gets Burgundy and the French are screwed.
If not then we can assume an OTL progression of the HYW.

So, in the alternate Treaty of Bretigny, Edward gains Brittany for his ATL son John of Brittany and in return gets a smaller Aquitaine.

We'll also assume English involvement in the Castilian Civil War - let's say one of the sisters is married to *John.

England are still pushed into just Gascony in Aquitaine but now hold Brittany.

What happens next depends on Richard II and if John is similar to OTL John of Gaunt and dies c1399.
Let's say yes and his son becomes King of England. What does France do?
 

Philip

Donor
Also need to factor in Bertrand du Guesclin who fought for Charles de Blois in the Breton Succession. Would he fight for Edward?
Do we know his OTL motivation? Did he fight for Charles because he thought Charles was the legitimate duke? Because Philip VI/John II supported Charles?
 
Do we know his OTL motivation? Did he fight for Charles because he thought Charles was the legitimate duke? Because Philip VI/John II supported Charles?

All I can find is this site which mentions he was at Charles de Blois's wedding where he first made his name as a soldier, later fighting under Charles's name.

If ATL he's at Edward's wedding maybe he takes up Edward's cause in order to become a Knight?
 
I can't help but find that to be pretty cool. :D

Don't know much on du Guesclin, but he was a man of ability and worth from what I do know.
 
Plantagenet Britanny would certainly be nice.

Would it be better for the Bretons?

This thread was started out of a curiosity on if an English presence on the continent is possible, but if it would be desirable to those on the continent in a non-Eurofed sort of way (No offense to him intended, but its not convincing enough for me), I'm all ears.
 
Would it be better for the Bretons?

This thread was started out of a curiosity on if an English presence on the continent is possible, but if it would be desirable to those on the continent in a non-Eurofed sort of way (No offense to him intended, but its not convincing enough for me), I'm all ears.

Well it'd certainly maintain their autonomy if not leading them to independence down the line.
Whether that is good for them or not depends on how they are connected in to the economy - if French merchants decide it is easier/cheaper to trade in Little Britain to English merchants rather than Great Britain then the Bretons as a whole are better off wrt OTL.
However Brittany may serve as a convenient scapegoat for French Kings wishing to attack England, in which case they may be worse off wrt OTL due to suffering more conflict.

Another question is whether Brittany is good for England...
 
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