AHC: English Argentina, pre-1700

Your challenge is to create a scenario with a pre-1700 POD in which there is a large-scale colonization effort in Argentina and the Rio de la Plata basin on the part of the English. Bonus points if these colonies gain their independence a-la the 13 colonies. Double bonus points if the entire Rio de la Plata basin, along with coastal Brazil, are also colonized.
 
England already desperately wanted the whole area and considered it a fantastic place for an English colony. Just have them win it as part of one of the half dozen Anglo-Spanish wars around 1700. Actually your what-if would almost be easier with a later POD. England invaded the area several times in the early 1800s.

England rarely had trouble attracting settlers to her colonies and Argentina had lots of good, cheap, empty land and decent access to trade. It's going to have a large British population in short order.
 

katchen

Banned
I seem to recall that the British actually got permission (assiento) to put a colony on the Rio de la Plata below Buenos Aires in one of the treaties ending one of the Anglo Spanish wars but the British never followed up on it. It may have been 1699.
New South Essex or New South Lincoln would have been good names for these colonies since the way the Pampas slope down to the sea with marshes is very reminiscent of East Anglia around The Wash. The British would have needed to develop the kind of steel ploughs that can cut through prairie grasslands to really make use of Argentina though. If they had colonies there, they might have. And Patagonia farther south is good land for sheep and good seacoasts for seal hunting.
With Argentina as a way station (and yes, British settlement would spread up the Parana and Paraguay to La Guira Falls, the Pantanal and the Andes on the Pilcomayo) British possession of the Cape of Good Hope might be unnecessary since Argentina would make a good way station for India. So the Dutch might wind up keeping the Cape in that case.
 
What are the odds of getting Pacific beachfront under those conditions? I figured Chile would still get in the way, and getting past the Andes might be doable through Bolivia but not so much across the southern range IIRC.
 
You need an english victory in the 1807 invasions, and they will be in position to hold. Probably get rid of Liniers, the french who led local troops to victory.
 
With Argentina as a way station (and yes, British settlement would spread up the Parana and Paraguay to La Guira Falls, the Pantanal and the Andes on the Pilcomayo) British possession of the Cape of Good Hope might be unnecessary since Argentina would make a good way station for India. So the Dutch might wind up keeping the Cape in that case.

I can still see the British wanting the Cape....why settle for one route when you can control them all?>...plus it was the less troublesome and easier to navigate due to being used for much longer, versus the unknown pacific
 
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With Argentina as a way station (and yes, British settlement would spread up the Parana and Paraguay to La Guira Falls, the Pantanal and the Andes on the Pilcomayo) British possession of the Cape of Good Hope might be unnecessary since Argentina would make a good way station for India. So the Dutch might wind up keeping the Cape in that case.

Would that potentially lead to an earlier English discovery of Australia and New Zealand and put more importance on them in the ATL as stopping points on the way to India and Malaysia?
 
Would that potentially lead to an earlier English discovery of Australia and New Zealand and put more importance on them in the ATL as stopping points on the way to India and Malaysia?

I think it's unlikely. England to India across the Pacific rather than around Africa would add thousands of extra miles to travel and the trade routes across the Pacific actually run far north of Australia. In that period as far as I know the only regular trans-Pacific trade would have been Spanish South American silver going to China.
 
Here is my suggested boundary of British Argentina by the time of hypothetical federation or confederation of colonies circa 1880-1890:

This is an exact South American analogue of Canada with English speaking majority and Spanish speaking minority. English-speaking Argentine culture however would be like Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa with Cockney-style humours or r-less dialects.

BritishArgentinaMap.jpg
 
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On one hand, getting through the Andes by foot is...challenging (and AFAIK *Chile was never part of Rio de la Plata). On the other hand, Royal Navy vs a country that's more strandline than country. If anybody could make that stick...also, why not Rio Grande do Sul if *English Argentina gets Uruguay? It's right next door, and that NE bulge looks weird :p
 
On one hand, getting through the Andes by foot is...challenging (and AFAIK *Chile was never part of Rio de la Plata). On the other hand, Royal Navy vs a country that's more strandline than country. If anybody could make that stick...also, why not Rio Grande do Sul if *English Argentina gets Uruguay? It's right next door, and that NE bulge looks weird :p

I am aiming to have the British gain Pacific coast for Argentine colonies and by the way, eastern parts of Rio Grande do Sul was already Portuguese, I think you're referring to Misiones Orientales.
 
I am aiming to have the British gain Pacific coast for Argentine colonies and by the way, eastern parts of Rio Grande do Sul was already Portuguese, I think you're referring to Misiones Orientales.

Fair enough.

And I'm referring to the British taking RGdS, as in the southernmost part of Brazil. "Why?" Why not, what's Brazil of OTL gonna do about it if they take it? In all seriousness, I forget that Britain and Portugal/Brazil weren't enemies in that war, so nevermind.
 
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I've read much as about connections and possibilities for an English Argentina. Don't have much to contribute but I'm following with high interest!
 
...This is an exact South American analogue of Canada with English speaking majority and Spanish speaking minority. English-speaking Argentine culture however would be like Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa with Cockney-style humours or r-less dialects.

Emphasis mine; it's certainly possible, but not IMO a given depending on the kind of immigration that arrives. Bear in mind, the accents of Australia and New Zealand were developed in a relatively isolated location, with distinctive "twang" and unique vowel structures owing largely to the fact that they were originally settled by Irishmen, East Anglians, convicts and lower-class colonists. South African English received a ton of influence from the Afrikaners and French Huguenots, as well as similar immigration from Britain as that which arrived in Australia (it was a major stop on the way, after all).

From that standpoint, it's possible an "Argie" dialect would resemble that of the Falklands or Australia. If it's settled by Britons from elsewhere in the country (say, Wales, or Lincoln, or Belfast), I'd suggest a much different sound by modern day than either the Ozzie or Kiwi sound.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The British lost twice when they invaded in the Nineteenth Century

and the Porteno victories depended on far more than just one (of several) commanders (Liniers) who although French by birth, was a Spanish royalist, and loyal to the crown enough he ended up being shot for it.

Going to the Eighteenth Century means you have to find a point where a) Spain would be willing to surrender the River Plate territories as part of a peace treaty, and b) the British would be willing to accept it, especially given the distance, and their focus on North America; it is also worth considering the fact the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata was both the last and most short-lived of the Spanish viceroyalties; there's a reason it took until 1776 to be created.

Going to the Seventeenth Century makes it even more unlikely that a) and b) would come into allignment.

Going to the Sixteenth Century makes it even more difficult.

Best,
 
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I've always liked the idea of a British Argentina. One scenario I had in mind a while back was them gaining the land in the first half of the 1700's, then have an Ameri-wank where Canada was part of the US after the revolution. That way many of the loyalists would flee to Argentina, which would help boost the number of English speakers.
 
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