AHC: England and France are weak elective monarchies by 1500s

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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There's the challenge- how can we have them develop a constitution reminiscent of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? And what are the consequences of the two powerful states not being able to perform cohesively?
 
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Well, for the English, have the Civil War degenerate to the point that a king is killed every six months or so, the Lords start to get tired of the constant war and insist on electing a new king from the House of N. whenever the old one dies.
 
The easiest way to do this is to prevent dynastic unity- this is what happened in Germany. Have the capets and all male descendants die out circa the 12th or 13th centuries.

For England avert the Norman conquest, either with a continuing Godwin dynasty or the Norwegians. Said dynasty dies out, the English nobles reassert their authority....
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
The easiest way to do this is to prevent dynastic unity- this is what happened in Germany. Have the capets and all male descendants die out circa the 12th or 13th centuries.

For England avert the Norman conquest, either with a continuing Godwin dynasty or the Norwegians. Said dynasty dies out, the English nobles reassert their authority....

That would have been extremely likely if the Norman conquest had not occurred, in that England would become an elective monarchy with the nobles effectively in charge of the country. Although even in that system, England would still be the most centralised state in Europe.
 
Didn't the Witan kinda sorta sometimes theoretically 'elect' the king (albeit only from candidates who belonged to the the royal family)? You could do something with that.
 
Dynasties dying out frequently. It is what happened in Poland-out of 15 kings, who ruled between 1333 and 1672, only 4 left surviving, legitimate sons. When future Władysław III was born in 1424, he was first male heir born to King of Poland since 1310!
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Didn't the Witan kinda sorta sometimes theoretically 'elect' the king (albeit only from candidates who belonged to the the royal family)? You could do something with that.

Yes indeed, for example in 1066 Edward the ilikely that the Witan would overrule Edward the Confessors and elect Harold Godwinson as king.
 
Dynasties dying out frequently. It is what happened in Poland-out of 15 kings, who ruled between 1333 and 1672, only 4 left surviving, legitimate sons. When future Władysław III was born in 1424, he was first male heir born to King of Poland since 1310!
Getting married in their forties if at all did not help
 
Didn't the Witan kinda sorta sometimes theoretically 'elect' the king (albeit only from candidates who belonged to the the royal family)? You could do something with that.

Most Kingdoms in Europe seemed to have at least a couple instances of their respective Diet/Parliament/Estates selecting or electing the King, but it wasn't a hard-and-fast tradition everywhere
 
While it was not elective, the French monarchy of the 1559-93 period (François II, Charles IX, Henri III, Henri IV before his conversion) was quite weak.
 
That would have been extremely likely if the Norman conquest had not occurred, in that England would become an elective monarchy with the nobles effectively in charge of the country.

It practically was elective already, although the candidates were limited to certain noble families like the Wessex (Ethelred, Edward) and it's relatives (Harold Godwinson, bother in law of the previous king, plus part of a powerful family himself to boot)
 
No Norman conquest of England would also butterfly the hundred year war, which was the primary source of French nationalism. This would make both a divided France and a less centralized France more likely. Perhaps France falls to pieces for a while and is unified by a political alliance between the kingdom of Aquitaine and Francia. Royal marriages between heirs and monarchs occur, but even if those do produce heirs, said heirs themselves have brief reigns and no male children.
 
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