AHC: Empires By The Sword... Literally

[stevep]

No guns on ships either? That'll sink any Euro attempt in the Indian ocean right there.

mowque

Not necessarily, although it makes it more difficult. They can still come up with an edge in general design, weaponry, training, tactics whatever. A lot harder when you're so far from you're home bases, so also requires the strong degree of local support that was often the case in the height of the later colonial period.

Steve

 

[Riain]

We're not talking about the magic elimination of gunpower are we? More the establishment of colonies prior to the acceptence of cannon, which were used in the early battles of the 100 Years War.

Eurasian armies in the pre-gunpowder age were closely enough matched which basically rules out Europeans colonising mainland Asia and Asia colonising mainland Europe. This leaves the Americas, Australia and sub-saharan Africa as colonising playgrounds. In 1300 Australia is an absolute shithole, southern Africa isn't far behind and the coastal areas are already penetrated by Islamic traders etc leaving only the Americas.

I think that a pre gunpowder Chinese or European (being the closest to the Americas and helped by prevailing wind and ocean currents) army of perhaps 5000 could do similar to what Cortez and Pizzaro did but the Europeans lack the ocean going ships of the Chinese even if they do posses the colonising drive. Perhaps the PoD is the capture of a huge Chinese Junk in the Red sea during the Crusading era, so the Europeans get a head start on their own ocean going ships.

 

[Kooluk Swordsman]

I'm glad no one is just dismissing this AHC as impossible.

Here's a question, what would happen with the European/Middle East conflicts without the advent of guns and cannons?

 

[Grey Wolf]

I'm glad no one is just dismissing this AHC as impossible.

Here's a question, what would happen with the European/Middle East conflicts without the advent of guns and cannons?

Technology would it be much different from Saladin versus the Crusaders? The Mongols presumably brought some additional technologies with them, and tactics will have adapted to dealing with them. Timur, Orhan etc all rose without firearms so its looking more like a question of how from the 15th century onwards would things go?

Were canon firing at Constantinople?
If so, would they not just use large ballistae a la Saladin instead? Flaming pitch and greek fire and what not.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[stevep]

Technology would it be much different from Saladin versus the Crusaders? The Mongols presumably brought some additional technologies with them, and tactics will have adapted to dealing with them. Timur, Orhan etc all rose without firearms so its looking more like a question of how from the 15th century onwards would things go?

Were canon firing at Constantinople?
If so, would they not just use large ballistae a la Saladin instead? Flaming pitch and greek fire and what not.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

If by Constantinople you mean the final siege in 1453 then yes. The Turks had huge cannon constructed on site, which was pretty much standard practice at the time I believe for sieges. Would probably be a little slower using ballista or simply starve the city into submission or use overwhelming numbers to storm the place.

I don't think anyone other than the empire ever knew the secret of Greek fire and they seem to have forgotten that as I don't know of it being used in the last years?

As you say other groups introduced or prompted the development of different combinations of technology, weapons and tactics. This could occur without gunpowder but is probably likely to be easier for rivals to counter by developing their own methods.

Steve

 

[Kooluk Swordsman]

Someone asked the question if gunpowder would be butterflied away or if I wanted a colonial empire before gunpowder came to be. To clarify, no gunpowder, ever. Ever ever ever. It along with guns and cannons as we know it have been carried away on the wings of a giant butterfly, never to be seen again.

By the way, I said technology could still advance, just not with guns and such. How about advanced rapid-fire crossbows? Improved navel designs? Or maybe colonialism doesn't start until the 1800's? You don't have to stick to OTL and 13th Century tech guys. Let your imaginations loose!

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Someone asked the question if gunpowder would be butterflied away or if I wanted a colonial empire before gunpowder came to be. To clarify, no gunpowder, ever. Ever ever ever. It along with guns and cannons as we know it have been carried away on the wings of a giant butterfly, never to be seen again.

By the way, I said technology could still advance, just not with guns and such. How about advanced rapid-fire crossbows? Improved navel designs? Or maybe colonialism doesn't start until the 1800's? You don't have to stick to OTL and 13th Century tech guys. Let your imaginations loose!

I just let my imgination loose.... damn it, now I want chainsaw armies.

 

[Malta]

Don't forget the Chinese Repeating Crossbow and Balistas