AHC: Elephant population in Europe

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Deleted member 67076

With a POD after 1000 BC, is there any way to establish an elephant population in any part of Europe that survives to this day?
 
With a POD after 1000 BC, is there any way to establish an elephant population in any part of Europe that survives to this day?

Longer lasting Carthaginian presence in Iberia should do the trick. After Pyrrhus, they started to really utilize elephants in their warfare. Have a couple escape and roam around, you've got an elephant population in Spain.

It's also possible to get them to Sicily, Greece, Macedonia/Thrace, and possibly Italy by similar means. Have some war-elephants bought and brought over, they escape into the wild, and there you go.
 

Deleted member 67076

Longer lasting Carthaginian presence in Iberia should do the trick. After Pyrrhus, they started to really utilize elephants in their warfare. Have a couple escape and roam around, you've got an elephant population in Spain.

It's also possible to get them to Sicily, Greece, Macedonia/Thrace, and possibly Italy by similar means. Have some war-elephants bought and brought over, they escape into the wild, and there you go.
Sweet. What POD would that require for places like Greece and Macedonia?
 
Though I'd think that much like the lions of Berberia or the Auroach's they'd eventually end up being hunted to extinction.
 
Though I'd think that much like the lions of Berberia or the Auroach's they'd eventually end up being hunted to extinction.

To have a stable population would require Human intervention and propogation, so I don't think they'd suffer that fate.
 
To have a stable population would require Human intervention and propogation, so I don't think they'd suffer that fate.

In any pre-Roman POD regarding animals in Europe, one needs to factor in the Roman circuses.

Why? Well, they managed to drive the North African Elephant into extinction.
 
Is any part of Europe even capable of supporting any extant species of elephant? I would guess that's the first thing to address - if they can't survive there as-is, you'd need to somehow change that, first (if it's possible).

Again, I'm not really sure if they can or not, it just strikes me as unlikely.
 

Deleted member 67076

Is any part of Europe even capable of supporting any extant species of elephant? I would guess that's the first thing to address - if they can't survive there as-is, you'd need to somehow change that, first (if it's possible).

Again, I'm not really sure if they can or not, it just strikes me as unlikely.
At least in Spain, Sicily and Greece
 
Is any part of Europe even capable of supporting any extant species of elephant? I would guess that's the first thing to address - if they can't survive there as-is, you'd need to somehow change that, first (if it's possible).

Again, I'm not really sure if they can or not, it just strikes me as unlikely.

Well, their were European elephants at one point (they went extinct, though it was one of the times we did'nt cause it), admittedly they were dwarf elephants, but they did exist.
 
I'd think you'd need some sort of religious/deep cultural prohibition against killing them for them to stand a chance.
 
It's a longshot, but if Hannibal's elephants survived crossing the Alps (for whatever plausible reason), perhaps the Romans develop some respect for them. They take a herd of elephants from the Carthanginians once the war ends and start breeding them in Italy. They quickly realize that they are useless but a few elephant farms linger on to provide beasts for the games. Elephant husbandry in Italy may allow for both the survival of the wild population and an expansion of the elephant's range from the odd escapes from latifundia pacydermium.
 
I'd think you'd need some sort of religious/deep cultural prohibition against killing them for them to stand a chance.

Actually they could probably survive in the more sparsely populated regions of Europe. The problem is that given the European climate the more sparsely populated regions are less likely to be able to support a stable elephant population. As you say, where more populated human and elephant ranges cross the pressures can get quite high. Wild Elephants are bad neighbours- they lay waste to crops and will seek out alcohol for booze fueled drunked rages. Of course this is based on what I know of Asian elephants- I'd imagine African elephant populations would be even more cranky.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
what about the islands ? Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Crete, Malta, Majorca, Minorca, Canaries ? could they support elephant ? local tradition by insular people that respect elephant in under-populated island could contribute to survival.

Another option is swamp. Venetian Lagoon ? The Fens ? with elephant stay at the swamp and not disturb farmer, they more likely to survive. if the swamp had malaria it might even give better chance.
 
what about the islands ? Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Crete, Malta, Majorca, Minorca, Canaries ? could they support elephant ? local tradition by insular people that respect elephant in under-populated island could contribute to survival.

Another option is swamp. Venetian Lagoon ? The Fens ? with elephant stay at the swamp and not disturb farmer, they more likely to survive. if the swamp had malaria it might even give better chance.

Elephants aren't really swamp creatures though. They need access to clean water.
 
I think the Roman legions are the ticket. The most use they could get out of them would would be using them for heavy labor like their used in parts of Asia. They could come in handy for helping clear trees and cross rivers to deep for horses. Prestige may also play apart.

The emperors later could ban them from the games. The North African elephant spreads across the empire. Soon they're being used by civilians, on larger plantations and to drag barges upstream.

From there, their just another indigenous domesticate.
 
What about the elephants used by Alexander the Great and the Diadochi? At one point Alexander's army had 300 elephants did it not? So have one of the Diadochi decide to try and breed them. It might not last more than a few centuries but it could last long enough to catch on with the other Diadochi and eventually Carthage and Rome.
 
Actually they could probably survive in the more sparsely populated regions of Europe. The problem is that given the European climate the more sparsely populated regions are less likely to be able to support a stable elephant population. As you say, where more populated human and elephant ranges cross the pressures can get quite high. Wild Elephants are bad neighbours- they lay waste to crops and will seek out alcohol for booze fueled drunked rages. Of course this is based on what I know of Asian elephants- I'd imagine African elephant populations would be even more cranky.

Seek out alcohol? I've never heard of that behavior. I searched it out--National Geographic says that it's a myth, in African elephants anyway:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1219_051219_drunk_elephant.html

(EDIT: The link discusses getting drunk off fermented fruit. Roman wine had a little over twice as much alcohol per unit weight as the fruit in the article does--but you would still need to feed it 13 liters of wine to get an adult drunk. How much do Indian elephants drink?)

Google gives lots of links to stories of Indian elephants getting drunk, though. Maybe humans have been a bad influence on the species they've been in closer contact with?

This is not to say that the herd would not be unruly. African elephants follow a social organization actually rather similar to wild cattle and horses--lone bulls roam the plains, while the females and calves form herds. Just bigger, and with all the problems scaled up. All the damage that ungulates do to settled populations--imagine what an elephant herd would do!

Bull elephants would be the biggest problem--when they get into heat, they kill random rhinos. Of course, stallions and bull cattle are aggressive too--some anthropologists suggest that the domestication of the horse was the result of humans coming across a rare freak-of-nature, a timid stallion. He could only breed with human assistance--man could only successfully tame his descendants. So, if the timid bull elephant presents itself,perhaps domestication is possible, as opposed to taming females taken from the wild without breeding your own.

Bottom Line: It's very difficult to imagine a self-sustaining elephant population in Europe. If that timid bull is found, then you might see some success in breeding them. But if they have to be wild, then farmers will hunt them to extinction to protect their crops.
 
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