AHC: Earlier Empire originating in Ukraine and Volga basin

Albert.Nik

Banned
Ukraine is one of the most strategic and fertile lands in the Western Hemisphere. It was however rarely a center of large Empires. It was inhabited by Scythians,Cimmerians,Caucasians and Uralic people. In this AHC,we need a significantly large Empire built by either Scythians,Caucasian peoples,Cimmerians, Finno-Ugric peoples and such people. POD range is 3000BCE till the Turkic expansion into Central Asia. The Empire can stretch through Ukraine,Central Asia,Afghanistan,Iran,Northern fringes of India,Eastern Europe,North Central Europe. So let's see what you've got to make.
 
So, depending on whom you believe, this might be more ASB than AH, but I'd love to read a Khazar tale, with the Khazar Empire securing the borders against the Turks, playing off against the Byzantines and then going North and creating an empire, or a client state. Even if the empire falls, I'd like to see that satellite becomes its own thing. But I do not think I am the man to write such a tall tale. For starters, it would require someone to do a lot of research into an era of history I know at a shallow level. Another, the scope, the sheer scope of it, would be so epic, you'd be drowning in backstories to get to the main story.

In the immortal words of Hannah Green in "Wonder Boys:" And even though you're book is really beautiful, I mean, amazingly beautiful, it's... it's at times... it's... very detailed. You know, with the genealogies of everyone's horses, and the dental records, and so on.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Kazars are later entrants to this region and do not qualify for this AHC. Only Indo-Europeans(in that,only Indo-Iranians,Anatolians,Tocharians,Cimmerians) and Non Indo European Caucasian peoples and Uralic people qualify for this AHC.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Would it count if a Sarmatian ruler unites Sarmatia into a more distinctly united state?
Sarmatians are Indo-Iranian speakers who are probably a subset of Scythians with some mix of Caucasian and others like Uralic,etc. Sarmatians would definitely qualify! I would be very happy,infact if you post a detailed case of an united and a strong Sarmarian Empire that includes Pontic coast,Volga Basin and parts of Steppes in the East!
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
That said,I wonder why we didn't see a strong and united Scythian Sarmarian Empire start from the Pontic coast of Ukraine which was very fertile and spread into Central Asian green regions and river basins. Sarmatians were quite strong as a peoples and also were probably decently Organized for this. It would be awesome to see Eurosphere remain in the Central Asia as it was in the Antiquity and how regions like Rome and Balkans would develop with this!
 
That said,I wonder why we didn't see a strong and united Scythian Sarmarian Empire start from the Pontic coast of Ukraine which was very fertile and spread into Central Asian green regions and river basins. Sarmatians were quite strong as a peoples and also were probably decently Organized for this. It would be awesome to see Eurosphere remain in the Central Asia as it was in the Antiquity and how regions like Rome and Balkans would develop with this!

The problem here is the nature of steppe lands and pastoral nomadic lifestyles. Both in the sense that it tends not to produce strong centralized states at all, and in the sense that because it is ideal land for herding and grazing, its benefits for agriculture aren’t really being expressed. And that means that they almost always have low levels of population density vis a vis their neighbors. And are also comparatively unstable from the perspective of major states, outside of shifting webs of tribal groupings.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
The problem here is the nature of steppe lands and pastoral nomadic lifestyles. Both in the sense that it tends not to produce strong centralized states at all, and in the sense that because it is ideal land for herding and grazing, its benefits for agriculture aren’t really being expressed. And that means that they almost always have low levels of population density vis a vis their neighbors. And are also comparatively unstable from the perspective of major states, outside of shifting webs of tribal groupings.
Wait. Let's see this slowly. Or it looks like Scythians were used for Nomadic Pastoral life only. Ukraine was a fertile land suited for Agriculture. Scythio-Sarmatians were aware of other Agriculture practicing civilizations like Greece,Rome,Germanic kingdoms,Slavs,Balts,Celts,etc could have a Splinter group that could travel into Scythia and start an Agricultural society there with the Scythians. This would increase their population and expansion prospects. You could have the resulting kingdom being majority Scythian genetically and minority Celtic,Germanic,Italic,Hellenic, Balto-Slavic,etc and speak mostly the language of the splinter group and in various pockets,Scythian and Tocharian could remain along with Caucasian and Uralic.
 
Wait. Let's see this slowly. Or it looks like Scythians were used for Nomadic Pastoral life only. Ukraine was a fertile land suited for Agriculture. Scythio-Sarmatians were aware of other Agriculture practicing civilizations like Greece,Rome,Germanic kingdoms,Slavs,Balts,Celts,etc could have a Splinter group that could travel into Scythia and start an Agricultural society there with the Scythians. This would increase their population and expansion prospects. You could have the resulting kingdom being majority Scythian genetically and minority Celtic,Germanic,Italic,Hellenic, Balto-Slavic,etc and speak mostly the language of the splinter group and in various pockets,Scythian and Tocharian could remain along with Caucasian and Uralic.

The problem is that for the region, and specifically from the perspective of controlling the region, pastoral nomads have an innate advantage both in the sense that cavalry ruled the battlefield until well into the age of gunpowder. It’s the same advantage that the indo-Europeans themselves had in warfare early on. And so theres a major practical difficulty to just moving in and establishing agriculture. If it were just a matter of moving in and establishing agricultural communities, the Greeks, Thracian, or Goths, would have done it. They all made some kind of effort to expand in that direction historically and they were largely constrained from expanding inland into the region specifically by its nomadic inhabitants. Alongside that there is also the constant external threat from new nomads trying to move in and take over this pasture land. Which makes it a matter of having to be able to consistently and thoroughly beat nomadic societies moving in and attempting to take over as well. Which is really only a situation which emerges roughly in the era when much of Ukraine east of the Dneiper was brought under cultivation in real life.
 
A more successful Hittite Empire turns the Black Sea into its private lake and Ukraine into its granary. Bronze Age Collapse still happens and the Scythians get the best part of the Eurasian Steppe.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
A more successful Hittite Empire turns the Black Sea into its private lake and Ukraine into its granary. Bronze Age Collapse still happens and the Scythians get the best part of the Eurasian Steppe.
So like the Germanic people who built on Rome in Western Europe,the Scythians gain the advantages like this from the Hittites?
 
A more successful Hittite Empire turns the Black Sea into its private lake and Ukraine into its granary. Bronze Age Collapse still happens and the Scythians get the best part of the Eurasian Steppe.

I honestly have difficulty imagining the Hittites expanding north too far. In otl, their greatest defeats came from the north and their inexperience with naval expedition makes conquest of this borders by sea unlikely.
 

krieger

Banned
That said,I wonder why we didn't see a strong and united Scythian Sarmarian Empire start from the Pontic coast of Ukraine which was very fertile and spread into Central Asian green regions and river basins. Sarmatians were quite strong as a peoples and also were probably decently Organized for this. It would be awesome to see Eurosphere remain in the Central Asia as it was in the Antiquity and how regions like Rome and Balkans would develop with this!
Ateas united while Scythia from Danaster to Don river. He made Philip II of Macedonia his heir, but was defeated by him and Philip wasn't interested in pursuing his claim. Say Philip pursues his claim after defeating Ateas and Scythia becomes a part of Macedonia. Than, during the diadochi wars it breaks free, while being ruled by Greek elites.
 
I honestly have difficulty imagining the Hittites expanding north too far. In otl, their greatest defeats came from the north and their inexperience with naval expedition makes conquest of this borders by sea unlikely.
As I said, they were the least implausible choice I could think of. Given when they first arrived into Anatolia, their lacking naval capabilities can be blamed on their choosing to settle so far inland rather than into the Asia Minor's portion of OTL Magna Graecia, something they could've done and still be known as Hittites in the history books, since what we call them is a biblical exonym derived from the name of their capital, which as as far as I know had no connection to the region they built it in other than what was around it.
 
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My idea was basically to have a Western Xiongnu equivalent, basically a very strong conquest and destabilization from the South(Achaemenid or Helleno-macedonic) could create a rift that would cause the confederations in modern Kazakahstan, Southern Russia and Ukraine to unite to confront the threat and confront their new enemies better.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
My idea was basically to have a Western Xiongnu equivalent, basically a very strong conquest and destabilization from the South(Achaemenid or Helleno-macedonic) could create a rift that would cause the confederations in modern Kazakahstan, Southern Russia and Ukraine to unite to confront the threat and confront their new enemies better.
But are you suggesting a Nomadic or a settled empire?
 
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