AHC: Earlier Columbian Exchange

Maybe you could go with a situation whereby Abu Bakr Keita's supposed discovery of the Americas gets the attention of the Mali empire and it is colonised, but since we are talking about an African civilization it would be more likely for them to just trade with the Americans. A situation whereby a great deal of trade goes on between Mali and the Americans would be like an earlier form of Columbian exchange, with a more African and Islamic dynamic to it. It is possible that the Americas would eventually be colonised by the Malians, and I think that with all the trans oceanic trade going on the colonies would have close ties with the African part of the empire. With Mansa Musa on hajj he will of course spread knowledge of the Americas, which gets the Arabs excited and they all flock to Mali to reach the new world and trade. The natives do have a hard time with old world diseases, but they do eventually build up immunity. Since there is now malaria in the Americas, along with the old world diseases, it is a lot more difficult for the Europeans to colonise it. What are your thoughts on that?

Even if the Abu Bakr legend is true, this POD in 1311 is very late in the game. There isn't enough time for the native population to come back from a 90% collapse. It took two hundred years for European population to recover from the Black Death. By 1492 there probably would be no cities and empires in the new world. Brazil might be off limits to Europeans due to malaria, but outside the tropics the now depopulated Americas would be easy to colonize. Iron making probably wont be transfered in this exchange. New England tribes did not smelt iron after two centuries of English settlement. The Africans might get cassava, beans and corn, but they would get them anyway from the Europeans in the 16th century.
 
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You should probably learn about how disease migrated to the new world, the lack of disease resistance amongst Europeans in Africa, the habitats of malaria carrying Mosquitos and a host of other related topics before talking about an earlier Columbian Exchange.
No, I know about each of those things; I mean, why is it game over for European explorers looking to make inroads to the continent? Again, unless we're actually talking about colonization and settlement here, and not exploration per se.

If the idea is that malaria itself makes the continents uninhabitable for non-africans, then that would nearly wipe out the native population, which in turn (when combined with an absence of livestock) would mean the malaria would either have to become less deadly or collapse, which in either case would make the depopulated land habitable again, much like OTL. To the extent that diseases like malaria held back Europeans from exploring and colonizing Africa, it only worked because there was a sizeable human and livestock population that was more immune to said diseases than the Europeans, and so could "feed" the mosquitos, keeping the diseases alive.
 
Sugarcane plantations on Madeira and Canary Islands could do it. If there was a lot of naval traffic in the area, people would make note of the winds and currents. And occassionally you'd get ship blown off route by a storm or something, one of those might get lucky and figure out the trick of sailing back. After _that_ is done, sailing to the Gold Coast would be pretty straightforward idea.
 
No, I know about each of those things; I mean, why is it game over for European explorers looking to make inroads to the continent? Again, unless we're actually talking about colonization and settlement here, and not exploration per se.

If the idea is that malaria itself makes the continents uninhabitable for non-africans, then that would nearly wipe out the native population, which in turn (when combined with an absence of livestock) would mean the malaria would either have to become less deadly or collapse, which in either case would make the depopulated land habitable again, much like OTL. To the extent that diseases like malaria held back Europeans from exploring and colonizing Africa, it only worked because there was a sizeable human and livestock population that was more immune to said diseases than the Europeans, and so could "feed" the mosquitos, keeping the diseases alive.
Europeans died from malaria and African woodland/forest diseases in droves which is why for centuries they stayed on islands like Goree and coastal villages.

In Central Africa where because of tsetse there were but a few pygmy goats at most in a village of means and where decentralized villages were near the rule rather than the exception within Equatorial Africa we still see the persistence of malaria and other tropical diseases.
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The history of Africans in contact and relationship with Indigenous Americans consists of domination.

We have Garifuna, Miskito Sambu, the Zambo chieftains of Esmeraldes representing 100,000 people, the black/yellow caribs, as well as the quilombos of Northeast Brazil which are all cafuzo.

The histories of the above mentioned people show quick adaptiveness as well as a blending of West and Central African farming on new world crops creating demographic "explosions" given the context.
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The tropical diseases of woodland and forest Africa would 1. Decimate populations 2. Politically unified Africans would absorb the rest and quickly multiple

https://books.google.com/books?id=v...UP1GMKHQXTBMY4ChDoAQgiMAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

This of course is ignoring that other diseases persist without human hosts like yellow fever which can be in primates and that outbreak effect people.
 
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Maybe you could go with a situation whereby Abu Bakr Keita's supposed discovery of the Americas gets the attention of the Mali empire and it is colonised, but since we are talking about an African civilization it would be more likely for them to just trade with the Americans. A situation whereby a great deal of trade goes on between Mali and the Americans would be like an earlier form of Columbian exchange, with a more African and Islamic dynamic to it. It is possible that the Americas would eventually be colonised by the Malians, and I think that with all the trans oceanic trade going on the colonies would have close ties with the African part of the empire. With Mansa Musa on hajj he will of course spread knowledge of the Americas, which gets the Arabs excited and they all flock to Mali to reach the new world and trade. The natives do have a hard time with old world diseases, but they do eventually build up immunity. Since there is now malaria in the Americas, along with the old world diseases, it is a lot more difficult for the Europeans to colonise it. What are your thoughts on that?
I'd go back further to a Hanno the Navigator influenced coast in West Africa where a core group of ship makers and sailors who were sick and left for dead are revived back to health and interweave themselves within local communities.

The formation of Littoral African trade via a bronze age Creole "Kru" caste and ethnic group could like blacksmiths be made by any forming kingdom or chieftain all along the coast from Mauritania and Cape Verde to DRC facilitating salt, iron, copper and gold trades.

A later decreolized truly African venture to expand markets and explore new lands could create a Keita like figure to man a few hundred to a thousand ships (I'm thinking more catamarans) to go westm

Taking into account the history of early Portuguese in West Africa from 1415-1500 we have clear records of Europeans "going bush" and submitting to matrilineal polities where their sons were able to get a foothold and influence/expand West African mercantile industry. Eventually coming into power.

So why not this.

Anyone who does an ATL will have to be on their shit though because that's a lot of reading.
 
.....Do you like not read or know the history of subaltern populations in the colonial era because at this point you're sounding foolish
I'm literally just trying to understand what you're saying, and getting continuously insulted and talked down at for it.
While we're at it, thinking about some common WIs of the late Middle Ages, I'm wondering if they would help or hurt with meeting this challenge:
  • there were no Crusader States (in the Middle East)
  • the Crusader States were more successful
  • the Mongolian conquests didn't happen
  • the Mongolian conquests were more successful (took Egypt, etc)
  • the Ottoman Empire never rose
Taking a swing at this myself, I'd guess that having the Crusader States survive would make an earlier Columbian Exchange less likely, and would probably delay it; ditto for the Mongolian conquests spreading further west, especially if they reach Egypt. Both cases would mean less resources available for investing in Atlantic trade.
 
I'm literally just trying to understand what you're saying, and getting continuously insulted and talked down at for it.

Taking a swing at this myself, I'd guess that having the Crusader States survive would make an earlier Columbian Exchange less likely, and would probably delay it; ditto for the Mongolian conquests spreading further west, especially if they reach Egypt. Both cases would mean less resources available for investing in Atlantic trade.
If you do not understand the reverberations of an African and Native American contact utilizing the data available regarding disease, weaponry, political organization and inter-group dynamics OTL you're not going to be able to make an accurate ATL.

This is what I am saying. Do you understand this?
 
If you do not understand the reverberations of an African and Native American contact utilizing the data available regarding disease, weaponry, political organization and inter-group dynamics OTL you're not going to be able to make an accurate ATL.

This is what I am saying. Do you understand this?
But we're not writing an ATL, at least not here; we're discussing. Towards that end, you appeared to be describing just such scenarios:
If you go a West/Central Africa to Brazil route get ready for massive malarial die off and basically fucking over most chances of European exploration and such.
European exploration away from the coast lines. Once they hit brackish and fresh water especially that's quite stagnant it's game over.
The tropical diseases of woodland and forest Africa would 1. Decimate populations 2. Politically unified Africans would absorb the rest and quickly multiple
Now what I thought you were saying here is that, following contact with West Africans, American populations would be decimated by diseases introduced by them (similar to how OTL they were decimated by diseases introduced by Europeans, and possibly African slaves), which in turn would open up the devastated lands to be settled by the West African kingdoms (at least somewhat comparable to how they were settled by European powers OTL). And I was, and am, asking if I understand you correctly. Am I making sense?
 
Opening up the New World early enough could see the Black Death reach its shores as desperate Europeans try anything to escape. Maybe the only survivors are the rats...
 
There were 300-400 ton Roman ships afloat even in the late Empire that might inspire larger ships or a surviving piece that is (imperfectly) copied somehow? Not sure when the last of the Muriophorios sank or was lost?
 
Opening up the New World early enough could see the Black Death reach its shores as desperate Europeans try anything to escape. Maybe the only survivors are the rats...
I doubt a significant percent of Europeans will be able to flee the continent, so the demographic damage to the continent itself shoukd be unaffected. That said, yeah I can see a significant number escaping, then bringing the plague to the Americas, like you say.
 
I don't see why West African polities would go through all that trouble to set up colonies in the Americas. After all, why waste money on expensive colonies if they have everything they need back at home?
 
I don't see why West African polities would go through all that trouble to set up colonies in the Americas. After all, why waste money on expensive colonies if they have everything they need back at home?

Whether West African, Scandinavian, Byzantine, or other governments - even if they have resources they might not have the security or 'freedom they desire. A desperate government that decides to send out a splinter colony might grow to impressive proportions in a century or two under the right conditions. Imagine a Cathar Recife or Byzantine Rio de Janiero. Perhaps a Neapolitan Cuba or Genoese Delmarva is plausible as well?
 
.....Do you like not read or know the history of subaltern populations in the colonial era because at this point you're sounding foolish

Your tone is way out of line in this thread. Nothing he said deserves to be responded to with such scorn and condescension. The only conclusion I can come to is that you're trying to get a reaction out of him. That's trolling. Don't troll.

Kicked for a week.
 
If you can find a way to get China or Japan sending voyages northward along the Siberian coast, it is, at the very least, geographically possible.

The Trade Winds (and currents too) work in favor of getting to Alaska and California from Japan

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what you need are ships big enough for the needed provisions

Ships like Zheng He had

you also need a reason to make the trip... potentially the sea otter (whose fur was literally worth its weight in gold in the 19th Century China Trade) could be that justification.

I played with this idea a few years ago when I ran a forum based alternate history game so I did a bit of research. Pretty interesting possibilities here.

But it requires some political and social changes in East Asia to make it happen
 
The Trade Winds (and currents too) work in favor of getting to Alaska and California from Japan...

you also need a reason to make the trip... potentially the sea otter (whose fur was literally worth its weight in gold in the 19th Century China Trade) could be that justification.
From Hokkaido, they could island hop along the Kuril Islands up to Kamchatka; these waters have plenty of sea otter in them, so there's economic reasons to settle the islands and explore, provided they can get the furs to market. From Kamchatka, it's pretty easy for these Japanese pelters to accidentally discover Bering Island, from Bering Island to Attu Island, and from there island hop until they reach Alaska; I think these waters still have lots of otters in them, so depending on the market, they'll have prospects. If they make it as far as the mainland, they'll be running into Alutiiq who will be able to tell them about the Kenai Peninsula, so an exploration party could reach could reach that far east pretty quickly if they're lucky.
I played with this idea a few years ago when I ran a forum based alternate history game so I did a bit of research. Pretty interesting possibilities here.

But it requires some political and social changes in East Asia to make it happen
Are these changes mainly concerned with Japan tapping into a large Chinese demand for sea otter pelts? Or is this something more complicated?
 
From Hokkaido, they could island hop along the Kuril Islands up to Kamchatka; these waters have plenty of sea otter in them, so there's economic reasons to settle the islands and explore, provided they can get the furs to market. From Kamchatka, it's pretty easy for these Japanese pelters to accidentally discover Bering Island, from Bering Island to Attu Island, and from there island hop until they reach Alaska; I think these waters still have lots of otters in them, so depending on the market, they'll have prospects. If they make it as far as the mainland, they'll be running into Alutiiq who will be able to tell them about the Kenai Peninsula, so an exploration party could reach could reach that far east pretty quickly if they're lucky.

Are these changes mainly concerned with Japan tapping into a large Chinese demand for sea otter pelts? Or is this something more complicated?

basically what you posted above was my rationale

Sea Otter furs were most definitely part of it, along with Japanese whaling and fishing (the poor Stellers Sea Cow was a draw too)

for political I had the other side win the war that created the OTL Shoganate (and its isolation)
 
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