AHC: Draw the Ideal Map of Post-WWI Europe

[Dr. No]

The correct borders aren't as important as is the treatment of minorities who'd end up at any side of the border. Therefore I hadn't proposed precise borders to be set up, only proposing coherent borders w/o enclaves and exclaves, meaning that Germany (incl. Austria, of course) and Hungary could (but not have to) still get a share of territories they didn't get IOTL but put up with insular cases like German-speaking Iglau/Jihlava in Czechia and having the Szekler Hungarians in a Romanian Transsylvania.

As it's inevitable that practically every country in Central Europe would have had ethnic nationals of their own in neighboring countries that might or might not be endangered, practically every country, new and old, between the Rhine River and Russia should be required to partake in a comprehensive treaty framework of mutual control of minority rights with an EEC/EU-like economic cooperation on top of it. That's another thing I find important, well-fed people hardly revolt and the misery of the vestiges of A-H was tariffs at places where they didn't use to be. As we have the power of hindsight in this scenario, we are essentially morally required to do this.

Member states of a Treaty Of Mutual National Justice:

Germany (always incl. Austria, rest is negotiable)
Poland (eastern border at about Curzon line)
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania (incl. Vilnius)
Czechia and Slovakia (whether united or not)
Ukraine (i.e. at least Western Ukraine around Lwow)
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia (in which iteration ever)
Albania
Italy
Greece (and maybe even Turkey)
(further enlargement possible and desired)

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

No one would let them hold istanbul not to mention to keep it they would need massive ethnic cleansing on a scale that wont be seen till ww2, they would also need the full support of france and britian.

As has been pointed out before, Istanbul had a very sizeable Greek-speaking minority. Istanbul doesn't need to be ethnically cleansed for Greece to hold on to it. Anyways, I could easily see an alt-Lausanne take place.

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

Anyways, my "Ideal" map, if anything such is possible, is 1914 borders with the following changes:

-Alsace and Lorraine become part of France.
-Poland gains independence and has it's Eastern border set on it's Tsarist borders, and gains a corridor through Western Prussia.
-Italy receives the territory it received IOTL.
-Independent Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia, all with borders roughly reflecting the ethnic borders, with only minimal adjustment along the border with Turkey/Ottoman Empire.
-Independent Finland, preferably without civil war between Red and White factions.
-Austria-Hungary split between Austria and Hungary, with Croatia and Bosnia gaining independence, and Serbia being forbidden from union with either.
-Greece only gains Bulgarian Thrace.

 

[Don Grey]

Then just report their posts for advocation of ethnic cleansing and allow the Admin to take care of it, instead of dragging your ax everywhere.

Which ones? pretty much every tl remotly concerning turkey with maps ends up like this. If an aboriginal farts at some point or another in history turkey gets carved up in ah.com maps and tl's. As for advocating ethnic cleansing its already implyed because of the otl.The damn thing almost became a meme on the site. And i dont care if pointing it out annoys you.How ever i am thankfull the megala idea is atleast looked at with some cynisim.

As has been pointed out before, Istanbul had a very sizeable Greek-speaking minority. Istanbul doesn't need to be ethnically cleansed for Greece to hold on to it. Anyways, I could easily see an alt-Lausanne take place.

Having a sizable greek speaking minority means nothing so it doesnt mater how many times its been pointed out because sizable greek speaking minority alludes from the fact that there is a huge muslim population they will have to deal with which wont like them. The city is just to valuable for the greeks to hold on to it or the powers to let them have it.They will take it for them selves if possible. As for the ethnic cleansing they will repeat the policies that they imployed when ottoman territories were taken.The large muslim pop will be problamatic for them so they will cleans to achive a controlable size if they leave any at all. Failing that the nationalists will take it back from greece.You will need full political and military support from france and uk to hold it. I guess our definitions of easy changes.

 

[pompejus]

and as Cook's pointed out in another thread, Hitler dropped the claims on the Corridor (and Danzig IIRC).

Hitler dropped the claimson the corridor and Danzig? Interesting. When and why?

 

[Alamo]

Danzig was set to be returned to German sovereignty regardless, and as Cook's pointed out in another thread, Hitler dropped the claims on the Corridor (and Danzig IIRC).

Danzig wasn't Polish, and it would be German eventually anyways.

That still doesn't change the fact that Poland needs a port. Perhaps it would be better to give Poland the easternmost part of east Prussia instead of a corridor cutting German territory in half. Use pre-agreed upon population transfers to solve the issue of ethnicity.

Hitler dropped the claims on the corridor and Danzig? Interesting. When and why?

I'm not sure if this is what he is referring to, but in the negotiations Ribbentrop had with Jozef Lipski leading up to the war, Germany was apparently willing to drop claims on the Corridor and let Poland keep it in exchange for the rights to build a rail line and highway across it connecting to east Prussia, and Poland joining the Anti-Comintern pact. Danzig itself would have to join Germany, but Poland would be allowed to retain control of the rail and port facilities, and in any event, with the Polish development of the port at Gdynia, Danzig was no longer viewed as being vital for Poland.

 

[pompejus]

I'm not sure if this is what he is referring to, but in the negotiations Ribbentrop had with Jozef Lipski leading up to the war, Germany was apparently willing to drop claims on the Corridor and let Poland keep it in exchange for the rights to build a rail line and highway across it connecting to east Prussia, and Poland joining the Anti-Comintern pact. Danzig itself would have to join Germany, but Poland would be allowed to retain control of the rail and port facilities, and in any event, with the Polish development of the port at Gdynia, Danzig was no longer viewed as being vital for Poland.

I wonder if they intended to keep it, although I doubt it. A pity as a Nazi Germany-Polish aliance against the Soviet Union would be interesting.

 

[Alamo]

I wonder if they intended to keep it, although I doubt it. A pity as a Nazi Germany-Polish aliance against the Soviet Union would be interesting.

Well, one never knows for sure. Still, I'd guess that the offer was genuine - Hitler had given Trento, home of over 300,000 ethnic Germans to Italy to secure an alliance with Mussolini, so there certainly was precedent. Poland was a military dictatorship, and had participated in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. An attempt to get Poland into an anti-Soviet alliance wouldn't have been out of the question, and would have been similar to the alliance the Axis tried to forge with other authoritarian, anti-communist states in eastern Europe.

 

[SlideAway]

I wonder if they intended to keep it, although I doubt it. A pity as a Nazi Germany-Polish aliance against the Soviet Union would be interesting.

I think what was actually being referred to was the 1934 German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact, where Germany dropped all claims to Polish territory.

Granted, Hitler later revived the claims as part of the Danzig Crisis. But the fact that Hitler suffered no consequences for this illustrates that the Germans may well have accepted the Polish borders despite their dislike for them.

 

[Alternate History]

Ideal, you say? Hmm...

Of course, this requires a pre-WWI POD, so whatever is closest is my practical choice.

 

[SlideAway]

That still doesn't change the fact that Poland needs a port. Perhaps it would be better to give Poland the easternmost part of east Prussia instead of a corridor cutting German territory in half. Use pre-agreed upon population transfers to solve the issue of ethnicity.

There are a few problems with this. An eastern outlet to the sea, running through either Lithuania or E. Prussia, would have had to go through territory that was majority non-Polish. And the Vistula River was historically Polish territory where most Polish industry and Polish trade routes ran through. Economically and politically, the corridor really was the most viable option for Poland.

And truth be told, Danzig would probably have been better off simply going to Poland in the first place. Gdynia's construction actually hurt Danzig - because the Poles suspected it would revert to German control, they constructed a new port, which just wound up causing Danzig to wither as they lost their market (the Polish hinterland).

 

[MSZ]

Well, one never knows for sure. Still, I'd guess that the offer was genuine - Hitler had given Trento, home of over 300,000 ethnic Germans to Italy to secure an alliance with Mussolini, so there certainly was precedent. Poland was a military dictatorship, and had participated in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. An attempt to get Poland into an anti-Soviet alliance wouldn't have been out of the question, and would have been similar to the alliance the Axis tried to forge with other authoritarian, anti-communist states in eastern Europe.

The offer was proposed on 21 March 1939 - a week after Germany broke the Munich Agreement, asuring the world that his offers can't be trusted. The suggested treaty was:

-Danzig becomes part of the Germany (no plebiscite)
-A transnational roadway is built through the Corridor (no details as of how it would work or be constructed)
-Poland joins the Anti-Cominter Pact
-Mutual recogintion of the Polish-German border
-Prolonging the Polish-German non-agression treaty for another 25 years
-Agreeing on future expansion of Poland eastwards and a common Polish-Hungarian border
-Cooperation on the issue of Jewish emigration from Poland and colonial policy
-Consultations on all matters regarding foreign policy


The offer was declined because:
a) Germany was completly unreliable on holding any promises
b) Poland didn't want a war with the Soviet Union
c) The treaty was unequal, as Poland was to lose it's rights in Danzig, had to accept the motorway and consult its foreign policy with Germany (limiting its freedom of alliances) in return for a scrap of paper - nothing Germany offered was tangible.

Just if anyone wondered about the details.

 

[TyranicusMaximus]

Which ones? pretty much every tl remotly concerning turkey with maps ends up like this. If an aboriginal farts at some point or another in history turkey gets carved up in ah.com maps and tl's. As for advocating ethnic cleansing its already implyed because of the otl.The damn thing almost became a meme on the site. And i dont care if pointing it out annoys you.How ever i am thankfull the megala idea is atleast looked at with some cynisim.

Honestly, I really don't give a damn. These are all fictional scenarios. If I write a timeline about the US in the 1800s, odds are I'm going to at least mention the ethnic cleansing/genocide in relevant detail. It doesn't mean I think it's a good thing, but I'll be damned if I were to whitewash something, and in fact, if I wrote a TL in which the US didn't do that, I'd be shouted down with cries of ASB.

Having a sizable greek speaking minority means nothing so it doesnt mater how many times its been pointed out because sizable greek speaking minority alludes from the fact that there is a huge muslim population they will have to deal with which wont like them. The city is just to valuable for the greeks to hold on to it or the powers to let them have it.They will take it for them selves if possible. As for the ethnic cleansing they will repeat the policies that they imployed when ottoman territories were taken.The large muslim pop will be problamatic for them so they will cleans to achive a controlable size if they leave any at all. Failing that the nationalists will take it back from greece.You will need full political and military support from france and uk to hold it. I guess our definitions of easy changes.

All I'm saying is that Greece does not have to commit ethnic cleansing to hold on to Istanbul, and even if they do, ethnic cleansing happened in more places than just the former Ottoman Empire, and no number of border changes as proposed in this thread will avoid that. So are you going to lash out at every scenario proposed?

 

[Voltaireness]

Best map for me will be a map where France gain what requested.
No german loses to Poland so no Danzig
A smaller Poland and a small Ucrainian republic with North Bucovina as original point of formation, practicall all the west side of today Ucraina falowing the majore river spliting the fizical map of Ucraine.
Eastern side will be added to Russia linking Crimea peninsula.
Hungary will lose 1866 Transilvania province but keep the hungarian teritory from 1866 except Croatia and Sloavacia ethnical areas.
Practically slovac and croat border will be a fair border based on etnic lines.
Hungarian romanian border will be on 1866 lines with populatin exchange.
Bulgaria will gain Macedonia and Albania will gain Kosovo.
Germany will keep his colonies except the chinesse concesions returned to China.
Siria,Iordania and Saudi Arabia will become independent.
Kurdistan will gain independence will the 2 remaining today religios separated zones will go one to Iran and the last to Siria

Portugal will lose its african colonies due to a LEague of Nation later decision provoked by Portugal policies.
Cehoslovakia will be a bit smaller with some parts given to Poland and Ucraina.
Due to ethnic problems with the german minority they will be relocated by free will in Bavaria.
Afganistan will gain pashtun lands and belucistan from British India
Russians from Caucaz decided to break from Moscow and proclaim their own independent Russia- Ruscauzian Federal Republic with 2 russian republics and Georgia+Armenia.
Azeri peoples will be reunited in a big Azeristan Republic

 

[Wendell]

I'm working on a map for this, but things to keep in mind are plausibility and viability.

 

[Superwes]

View attachment 163135

Hey, you asked.

Trolololololol

 

[Winston Smith]

Ideal, you say? Hmm...

Of course, this requires a pre-WWI POD, so whatever is closest is my practical choice.

That's less ideal and more high octane nightmare fuel.

 

[Snake Featherston]

So long as we're talking ideals (and thus something removed of actors and individual, contingent aspects of a situation) I would favor that the Mandate of Palestine would be a multi-ethnic liberal democracy, with recognition of all three religions in Palestine and a secular democracy recognizing no special rights for any individual ethnic or religious group. Jerusalem would be a free city ala Danzig. This, however, is an ideal scenario without referencing how this would translate into the real world, which is probably no better than the historical proposal for exactly this on the part of Feisal to the Jewish leaders of what would be Israel.

 

[Wendell]

So long as we're talking ideals (and thus something removed of actors and individual, contingent aspects of a situation) I would favor that the Mandate of Palestine would be a multi-ethnic liberal democracy, with recognition of all three religions in Palestine and a secular democracy recognizing no special rights for any individual ethnic or religious group. Jerusalem would be a free city ala Danzig. This, however, is an ideal scenario without referencing how this would translate into the real world, which is probably no better than the historical proposal for exactly this on the part of Feisal to the Jewish leaders of what would be Israel.

If Jerusalem is a free city, then where does secular Palestine base its government?

 

[Snake Featherston]

If Jerusalem is a free city, then where does secular Palestine base its government?

In Haifa, where there's a traditional large center of Arab society and where Jews and Arabs got along fairly well IOTL before the Arabs were mostly all-expelled. Of course this is an ideal, and wouldn't work with actual humans involved.