AHC: Draw the Ideal Map of Post-WWI Europe
- Thread starter Nerdlinger
- Start date
yannik
Banned
That was after 1919. And it's from the point of view (1918/19) unlikely that something like this would happen in the German Reich.
"(cf. "Famous pogroms include the Odessa pogroms, Warsaw pogrom (1881), Kishinev pogrom (1903), Kiev Pogrom (1905), Białystok pogrom (1906), Lwów pogrom (1918), and Kiev Pogroms (1919)")"
In opposite to this, the Lemberg pogrom happens 1918 and there will be another pogrom in 1939.And during this time according to wikipedia:
"Unlike in Austrian times, when the size and amount of public parades or other cultural expressions corresponded to each cultural group's relative population, the Polish government emphasized the Polish nature of the city and limited public displays of Jewish and Ukrainian culture.".
Discrimination of minorities was part of Polish governance! And therefore it's unjustifiable to let Poland administer Posen, Danzig or parts of the Ukraine.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lwów_pogrom_(1918))
"(cf. "Famous pogroms include the Odessa pogroms, Warsaw pogrom (1881), Kishinev pogrom (1903), Kiev Pogrom (1905), Białystok pogrom (1906), Lwów pogrom (1918), and Kiev Pogroms (1919)")"
In opposite to this, the Lemberg pogrom happens 1918 and there will be another pogrom in 1939.And during this time according to wikipedia:
"Unlike in Austrian times, when the size and amount of public parades or other cultural expressions corresponded to each cultural group's relative population, the Polish government emphasized the Polish nature of the city and limited public displays of Jewish and Ukrainian culture.".
Discrimination of minorities was part of Polish governance! And therefore it's unjustifiable to let Poland administer Posen, Danzig or parts of the Ukraine.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lwów_pogrom_(1918))
If the alternative were Stalinist rule I think the Ukrainians would probably be happier to have less cultural festivals in exchange for not being among the millions starved to death.
Here's my idea of post WWI:
- 1) Germany losed Alsace-Lorraine and colonies but kept east borders as prior WWI;
- 2) A-H lost Bosnia to Serbia, Trentin, Istria (except Fiume) and Dalmatia to Italy, Galicia to Poland and part of Transylvania to Romania; survived as a federated nation;
- 3) Bulgaria lost OTL territories;
- 4) OE seceded most of its lands to Egypt, Hedjaz and Iraq ( I forgot to put British Suez Channel but I'm too lazy to fix it)
- 5) Rise of Great Serbia but not of Yugoslavia
- 6) Victory of White Russians which were forced to recognize as indipendent Finland, Baltic States, Poland, White Russia, Ukraine and Caucasian States.
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What the -
Were you dropped from a time capsule launched in August of 1939?
I can't even think of anything pithy to say.
Kicked for a week for Nationalistic racism.
Were you dropped from a time capsule launched in August of 1939?
I can't even think of anything pithy to say.
Kicked for a week for Nationalistic racism.
White Russia forced to recognise and independent White Russia?
Paradossal, but true.
"White Ruthenia" was too pro German (while these states will be indipendent from Berlin)...The postwar border settlements were fine. Yes, there are things one can quibble with here and there, but any change creates just as many problems as it solves. And I fail to see how the interwar German borders were so unjust, or why people insist that German self-determination should trump the rights of other ethnicities. Poland should perhaps have received a less generous border in the east, but that was outside the purview of the Paris negotiators. And Hungary should have maybe received more territory in Vojvodina and slightly more territory along the Romanian border.
The problem at Versailles was ultimately not about the borders, which were about as fair a settlement all things considered as could possibly be done. That means balancing ethnic claims alongside other concerns like defensibility and economic needs (i.e. the Sudetenland).
The problem at Versailles was ultimately not about the borders, which were about as fair a settlement all things considered as could possibly be done. That means balancing ethnic claims alongside other concerns like defensibility and economic needs (i.e. the Sudetenland).
I apologize in advance for my poor map drawing skills...
Germany, Holland and Hungary has gone red, and Scandinavia is both united and red.
Germany, Holland and Hungary has gone red, and Scandinavia is both united and red.
MSZ
Banned
I'm not good in drawing maps, so I will just state my points:
1) Eulpen-Melmedy stays with Germany
2) Alsace-Lorraine goes to France
3) South Tirol stays with Austria
4) Austria allowed to unite with Germany
5) Italy gets part of Dalmatia, the uninhabited islands in the Adriatic Sea and the Dodecanese Islands.
6) Yugoslavia doesn't form - Serbia gets east Bosnia and the territories east of Montenegro granting it access to sea. Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia are independent.
7) Czechoslovakia doesn't form - Czechia keeps Sudetenland, Slovakia goes independent without the Hungarian populated territories in the south. Carpatho-Ruthenia stays with Hungary. Austrian Silesia is divided between Germany, Czechia and Poland.
8) Hungary keeps southern Slovakia, northern Vojvodina, Szekely Land with parts of Transylvania.
9) Rest of Transylvania goes to Romania.
10) Poland gets 1772 border in the west - Greater Poland and Pomeralia with Danzig goes to Poland, Upper Silesia stays German, East Prussia stays intact in south with a border in the west on Vistula. It gets pre-3rd partition territories in the east, minus Lithuania.
11) Lithuania goes independent with Vilnus, without Memelland.
12) Latvia and Estonia go independent.
13) Finland goes independent, keeps Karelia.
14) Ukraine goes independent.
15) Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan go independent. Armenia gets territories in east Turkey.
16) Greece gets west Thrace and the various islands in the Aegean Sea.
17) Constantinopole becomes a free city protected by the League of Nations.
18) Northern Schleswig goes to Denmark.
The general idea is to return to "historic borders" with ethnic composition of them being taken into account, but not becoming an absolute rule, so that it cannot be abused, used instrumentally or encourage people to strongly affect the demographics of those lands.
1) Eulpen-Melmedy stays with Germany
2) Alsace-Lorraine goes to France
3) South Tirol stays with Austria
4) Austria allowed to unite with Germany
5) Italy gets part of Dalmatia, the uninhabited islands in the Adriatic Sea and the Dodecanese Islands.
6) Yugoslavia doesn't form - Serbia gets east Bosnia and the territories east of Montenegro granting it access to sea. Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia are independent.
7) Czechoslovakia doesn't form - Czechia keeps Sudetenland, Slovakia goes independent without the Hungarian populated territories in the south. Carpatho-Ruthenia stays with Hungary. Austrian Silesia is divided between Germany, Czechia and Poland.
8) Hungary keeps southern Slovakia, northern Vojvodina, Szekely Land with parts of Transylvania.
9) Rest of Transylvania goes to Romania.
10) Poland gets 1772 border in the west - Greater Poland and Pomeralia with Danzig goes to Poland, Upper Silesia stays German, East Prussia stays intact in south with a border in the west on Vistula. It gets pre-3rd partition territories in the east, minus Lithuania.
11) Lithuania goes independent with Vilnus, without Memelland.
12) Latvia and Estonia go independent.
13) Finland goes independent, keeps Karelia.
14) Ukraine goes independent.
15) Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan go independent. Armenia gets territories in east Turkey.
16) Greece gets west Thrace and the various islands in the Aegean Sea.
17) Constantinopole becomes a free city protected by the League of Nations.
18) Northern Schleswig goes to Denmark.
The general idea is to return to "historic borders" with ethnic composition of them being taken into account, but not becoming an absolute rule, so that it cannot be abused, used instrumentally or encourage people to strongly affect the demographics of those lands.
I Blame Communism
Banned
But it wasn't as of 1920, with Stalin not in charge, and was never inevitable. The guy might have just died, and the establishment of his regime depended greatly on his person as an organiser. Somebody else might have done the same things, but let's judge the 1920s by the facts of the 1920s. What were they? Both Poland and the USSR were perfectly willing to use violence to get control of chunks of Ukraine whatever the people thought, but the association of Poles with landowners meant that most ordinary peasants in ex-Russian Empire Ukraine probably preferred the Bolsheviks if the pair were all that was going. Certainly the Polish invasion failed to mobilise any great upsurge among the masses.
And during the 1920s the bulk of educated Ukrainian opinion preffered Soviet to Polish rule. Many Ukrainian nationalists chose to return to Soviet Ukraine from abroad (they were mostly liquidated when Stalin started getting paranoid) and Ukrainians in Galicia, while having mighty reservations about the whole violent communist dictatorship, had an equivocal view of Soviet Ukraine.
If we're jumping ahead to the 1930s, Poland is another dictatorship and policy is not 'less cultural festivals' but a regime of paramilitary police action, bans on political organisation, and uninspired attempts at colonisation that led to escalating terrorism within the Ukrainian community.
Why exactly do people think that Russia being some sort of ramshackle authoritarian democracy as likely as Italy or Germany to slide into Whacky Ideological Dictatorship - at best - and surrounded by states that it's ruling clique of generals regard as Bandits Bandits and Criminals! and which are in some cases (Belarus...) based on no obvious state infrastructure excepting perhaps the German army, which you wrote off, will be good for European stability?
(The Caucasus states, by the way, have no chance unless Britain wages an all-out new war against Turkey, which public exhaustion prevented us from doing, and props them up. When the Turks were closing in, the Christian nations decided they'd rather have the Bolsheviks. The Georgians had no reason to love the reds, and the Armenians are going to let in anyone who keeps out the Turks. And Azerbaijan and Armenia were fighting eachother, of course, so when the Russians of whatever decide they want that oil, whose stopping them?)
What really would be would be some sort of left-leaning democratic Russian federation open to mutual co-operation with the Entente powers. But the ship had sailed on that one and no mistake.
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I'm not really prepared on the RCW, but i guess in case of White victory hardly Democracy could flourished in Russia on the statement it was historically a nation with strong authoritarian tendencies, from the Empire to the USSR and even today fatigued to coexist with the basic concepts of a democracy.
However, if I understand your POV, both in case of white or red victory there will not be an extreme Russian disintegration, right? I will not deny this possbility but we had already the Chinese precedent of the warlord cliques, so i don't see why Russia will not be spared. The similarities between the two countries are evident.
My map was based on this concept: cessions of the Central Empires in the west, recognition of the status quo imposed after Brest Litvosk in the east but indipendent from Berlin.
Promor
Banned
USSR was based on ideology promoting violence though and much more inclined to use terror.
At the same time organisations did exists, books were printed, Ukrainian was tought in some schools, and Ukrainians elected to parliament. Let's not demonize interwar Poland, it had its flaws but was neither Soviet Union nor Nazi Reich. And the Ukrainians actually asked for military intervention against Soviets in 30s, something that was denied.
I Blame Communism
Banned
This made a great deal of difference if you were dead.
I'm not demonising it, I'm stating facts that appear to be neglected. People were making it sound as if the Ukrainians were in the condition of the Gaels: victims of neglect, contempt, bias, and ignorance but not of any physical or political assault as a community. If I corrected this misapprehension it doesn't imply that Poland was worse than anybody you like. Obviously Poland was not nearly so bad as the totalitarian regimes to either side.
To avoid wrong impressions, however: in Soviet Ukraine this was a period that went through active Ukrainianisation (trailed off gradually in the early 30s) through continuing official promotion of Ukrainian culture and, in particular, compulsory Ukrainian-language primary education in most of Ukraine.
'The Ukrainians' are not all of a piece. By the same token, 'the Polish citizens' (who were members of the Moscow-line Communist Party but why trouble ourselves with details?) were heartily pro-Soviet.
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I Blame Communism
Banned
Of course, few states had experience of modern democracy at that time - especially if we view them imperially, as Russia is habitually and necessarily viewed. I don't think a Russian democracy was doomed. I just think it was doomed by November 9 1918.
Either there's a Russian state or there's not. If it's broken down into anarchic warfare, well, that's a fine way to start a peace settlement. But if it exists as some sort of coherent entity then why surround it with a chain of weak and wobbly states that it regards as illegitimate? Any fool can see that this will mean Russo-German alliance to undo your settlement before you can say antidisestablishmentarianism.
And yes, to hold up states in the Caucasus would require more effort from the Entente than they were willing to make; to hold up Belarus would require either Germans or Poles who for some reason have some sort of Entente blessing; the Ukrainian directorate might conceivably have survived with only the sort of hands-off help received by the Baltic states, but that would require re-doing the chronology altogether. IOTL, Petlyura had gone on the run in the west by the time the big White offensives started. White victory under familiar circumstances necessarily means that the Whites already control Kiev and most of Ukraine.
The moment the Germans went, their 'status quo' vanished.
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Who exactly will be removing the Polish army from Posen (Poznan)?
Would need a succesful intervention in the Russian civil war, for which there was little enthusiasm
Do you mean Western Thrace or the entire part of Thrace which was held by Bulgaria - which also includes Northern Thrace.
Nuanced Allied victory map post-WW1
Ah, something like the Treaty of Versailles Negotiation Game: my take on the Allied side of the equation. It might help if OP specified exactly how much wiggle-room we have to alter the course of the war; my initial thought was that it would only involve what the Allies agree as the final borders, but lots of people have assumed different courses for the Russian Civil War and even some CP-victory maps! My effort:
GERMANY:
- To acknowledge guilt for the war and pay reparations (less than OTL).
- To cede Alsace-Lorraine to France (no Saar occupation), Heligoland to Britain, Eupen-Malmedy to Belgium, and the Polish-speaking parts of Posen to the Polish state.
- Danzig to become a free city affording Germany access to East Prussia and Poland sea access. Britain, France and Germany all jointly agree to guarantee the eternal inviolability of this territory.
- Plebiscites in Schleswig-Holstein, Silesia and East Prussia as OTL, with more territory assigned in the first instance to Poland and Czechia.
- All colonial territories to be ceded (France to be given the whole of Cameroon in compensation for the Anschluss clause).
- The Imperial Navy is to be completely decommissioned, with France and Britain given first refusal on purchase; Germany is henceforth forbidden a navy or air force.
- There is to be no occupation, but Germany's standing army is to be severely limited, with French and British observers at all levels for not less than 20 years. Any attempt to re-arm will trigger a clause that breaks Germany up into its constituent states.
- Union with Austria is prohibited for 10 years - after that, union is permissible providing Austria retains the Sudetenland.
- Charged with the protection of the Baltic German state of Courland.
- German troops will be enlisted to assist in the administration of the Straits Zone, but not the International Zone of the Holy Land, in an effort to focus Germany on Europe.
An attempt here to punish Germany (France won't allow any insufficiently punitive treaty to go through) and make its threat in the future non-existent, whilst satisfying its inevitable ethnic cohesion and pre-empting a few revanchist aims. Note no Polish corridor.
AUSTRIA-HUNGARY:
- To cede Welschtirol to Italy but retain most of South Tyrol.
- To be allocated the German-speaking areas of Bohemia, whilst the remainder is to achieve independence as Czechia.
- A small Slovene state is to be created under Austrian protection - should Anschluss occur, Germany must inherit this duty.
- A more generous settlement for Hungary than OTL that still includes mostly Hungarian-majority areas.
- A small Carpatho-Ruthenian state is to be created to spike Western Ukrainian claims to Polish territory.
- Hungary is to cede Slovak-majority areas, which will be used to create a Slovakian state under Polish protection.
The United States of Europe to be formed, consisting of Western Europe. It comprises a common market and a united front, guaranteeing the Eastern European nations' borders.
SERBIA:
- To achieve most of what was promised in the Treaty of London - territory from Albania, Hungary and Bulgaria and the whole of Bosnia. To acknowledge Dalmatia as Italian preserve.
- An 'artificial' Croatian state to be created outside the Treaty of London areas with the recognition of Italy and Hungary which agrees to grant Hungary sea access.
Yes, this is all likely to cause ethnic stress later. But creating Greater Albania as some have here (when even Italy wanted a smaller, more manageable Albania) is taking territory from the victorious power Britain and France went to war to protect to give to a neutral no-one wanted to have more territory.
ITALY:
- To achieve most of what was promised in the Treaty of London - Welschtirol (but not South Tyrol proper), Istria and parts of Carniola, Dalmatia, Vlore and the rump Albania as protectorate.
- Italian troops to withdraw from Northern Epirus and permit the annexation of the territory by Greece. As compensation, most of OTL's colonial border adjustments are to be made.
- Italian troops will be enlisted to assist in the administration of the Straits Zone and the International Zone of the Holy Land.
- Italy acknowledges British and French possessions (Nice, Corsica, Malta, Tunisia, Cyprus) by virtue of inclusion in the USE.
Italy is allowed to feel like one of the big boys whilst stressing to it that it's got to play nice with the Allies in future if it wants more gains. Hopefully its new little empire in Eastern Europe will prevent the need to increase tensions in Africa.
ROMANIA:
- Romania to achieve many of its goals, excluding Hungarian-majority Carpathia and Ukrainian areas of Bessarabia, which is to be annexed as an autonomous area.
GREECE:
- To annex Bulgarian and much of Turkish Thrace, Northern Epirus, and Izmir/Smyrna in Anatolia (it's assumed any further attempt to realise Greater Greece in Anatolia will fail). Inclusion in the USE.
EASTERN EUROPE:
- Lithuania to achieve most of its territorial ambitions, increasing the possibility for an EU-like Intermarum whilst simultaneously insulating it from Soviet expansion (it has borders only with Latvia-Estonia, Courland and Poland).
- A minimalistic Courland under German protection.
- A beefed-up Latvia-Estonia able to resist Soviet demands.
- Allies to support most of Soviet demands against Finland in the hope of creating defensible depth around Petrograd that will not lead to Soviet aggression.
- Covert aid to Ukrainian independence fighters, hopefully resulting in a buffer state against the Bolsheviks that can form part of a Polish-led regional alliance.
EX-OTTOMAN EMPIRE:
- Sevres is pushed as far as it will go - an International Zone of the Straits to be established as a perpetual obligation of the Great Powers.
- Armenia to be backed against Pan-Turanist forces - with Soviet backing with the understanding that Armenia with Wilsonian borders is to tacitly fall into the Soviet sphere but may not be annexed directly.
- Georgia's independence to be championed as a buffer for Armenia - in return, the Soviets get a free hand at Baku.
- Sykes-Picot pushed as far as it will go - an International Zone of the Holy Land to be established as an Allied codominion, with Russian troops invited to assist. Britain to retain control of Haifa. A Pan-Arab state proving impossible, a Greater Syrian state will be created under Franco-British influence, and Basra under direct British control, whilst the Saudis are allowed to annex the Hejaz and and Transjordan in exchange for guaranteed British conduct in the north. In return Britain is to receive all existing Ottoman claims in the Persian gulf.
France is to receive direct control over Lebanon and the Sanjak of Alexandretta, hopefully shortstopping any conflicts between Syria and Turkey.
Ah, something like the Treaty of Versailles Negotiation Game: my take on the Allied side of the equation. It might help if OP specified exactly how much wiggle-room we have to alter the course of the war; my initial thought was that it would only involve what the Allies agree as the final borders, but lots of people have assumed different courses for the Russian Civil War and even some CP-victory maps! My effort:
GERMANY:
- To acknowledge guilt for the war and pay reparations (less than OTL).
- To cede Alsace-Lorraine to France (no Saar occupation), Heligoland to Britain, Eupen-Malmedy to Belgium, and the Polish-speaking parts of Posen to the Polish state.
- Danzig to become a free city affording Germany access to East Prussia and Poland sea access. Britain, France and Germany all jointly agree to guarantee the eternal inviolability of this territory.
- Plebiscites in Schleswig-Holstein, Silesia and East Prussia as OTL, with more territory assigned in the first instance to Poland and Czechia.
- All colonial territories to be ceded (France to be given the whole of Cameroon in compensation for the Anschluss clause).
- The Imperial Navy is to be completely decommissioned, with France and Britain given first refusal on purchase; Germany is henceforth forbidden a navy or air force.
- There is to be no occupation, but Germany's standing army is to be severely limited, with French and British observers at all levels for not less than 20 years. Any attempt to re-arm will trigger a clause that breaks Germany up into its constituent states.
- Union with Austria is prohibited for 10 years - after that, union is permissible providing Austria retains the Sudetenland.
- Charged with the protection of the Baltic German state of Courland.
- German troops will be enlisted to assist in the administration of the Straits Zone, but not the International Zone of the Holy Land, in an effort to focus Germany on Europe.
An attempt here to punish Germany (France won't allow any insufficiently punitive treaty to go through) and make its threat in the future non-existent, whilst satisfying its inevitable ethnic cohesion and pre-empting a few revanchist aims. Note no Polish corridor.
AUSTRIA-HUNGARY:
- To cede Welschtirol to Italy but retain most of South Tyrol.
- To be allocated the German-speaking areas of Bohemia, whilst the remainder is to achieve independence as Czechia.
- A small Slovene state is to be created under Austrian protection - should Anschluss occur, Germany must inherit this duty.
- A more generous settlement for Hungary than OTL that still includes mostly Hungarian-majority areas.
- A small Carpatho-Ruthenian state is to be created to spike Western Ukrainian claims to Polish territory.
- Hungary is to cede Slovak-majority areas, which will be used to create a Slovakian state under Polish protection.
The United States of Europe to be formed, consisting of Western Europe. It comprises a common market and a united front, guaranteeing the Eastern European nations' borders.
SERBIA:
- To achieve most of what was promised in the Treaty of London - territory from Albania, Hungary and Bulgaria and the whole of Bosnia. To acknowledge Dalmatia as Italian preserve.
- An 'artificial' Croatian state to be created outside the Treaty of London areas with the recognition of Italy and Hungary which agrees to grant Hungary sea access.
Yes, this is all likely to cause ethnic stress later. But creating Greater Albania as some have here (when even Italy wanted a smaller, more manageable Albania) is taking territory from the victorious power Britain and France went to war to protect to give to a neutral no-one wanted to have more territory.
ITALY:
- To achieve most of what was promised in the Treaty of London - Welschtirol (but not South Tyrol proper), Istria and parts of Carniola, Dalmatia, Vlore and the rump Albania as protectorate.
- Italian troops to withdraw from Northern Epirus and permit the annexation of the territory by Greece. As compensation, most of OTL's colonial border adjustments are to be made.
- Italian troops will be enlisted to assist in the administration of the Straits Zone and the International Zone of the Holy Land.
- Italy acknowledges British and French possessions (Nice, Corsica, Malta, Tunisia, Cyprus) by virtue of inclusion in the USE.
Italy is allowed to feel like one of the big boys whilst stressing to it that it's got to play nice with the Allies in future if it wants more gains. Hopefully its new little empire in Eastern Europe will prevent the need to increase tensions in Africa.
ROMANIA:
- Romania to achieve many of its goals, excluding Hungarian-majority Carpathia and Ukrainian areas of Bessarabia, which is to be annexed as an autonomous area.
GREECE:
- To annex Bulgarian and much of Turkish Thrace, Northern Epirus, and Izmir/Smyrna in Anatolia (it's assumed any further attempt to realise Greater Greece in Anatolia will fail). Inclusion in the USE.
EASTERN EUROPE:
- Lithuania to achieve most of its territorial ambitions, increasing the possibility for an EU-like Intermarum whilst simultaneously insulating it from Soviet expansion (it has borders only with Latvia-Estonia, Courland and Poland).
- A minimalistic Courland under German protection.
- A beefed-up Latvia-Estonia able to resist Soviet demands.
- Allies to support most of Soviet demands against Finland in the hope of creating defensible depth around Petrograd that will not lead to Soviet aggression.
- Covert aid to Ukrainian independence fighters, hopefully resulting in a buffer state against the Bolsheviks that can form part of a Polish-led regional alliance.
EX-OTTOMAN EMPIRE:
- Sevres is pushed as far as it will go - an International Zone of the Straits to be established as a perpetual obligation of the Great Powers.
- Armenia to be backed against Pan-Turanist forces - with Soviet backing with the understanding that Armenia with Wilsonian borders is to tacitly fall into the Soviet sphere but may not be annexed directly.
- Georgia's independence to be championed as a buffer for Armenia - in return, the Soviets get a free hand at Baku.
- Sykes-Picot pushed as far as it will go - an International Zone of the Holy Land to be established as an Allied codominion, with Russian troops invited to assist. Britain to retain control of Haifa. A Pan-Arab state proving impossible, a Greater Syrian state will be created under Franco-British influence, and Basra under direct British control, whilst the Saudis are allowed to annex the Hejaz and and Transjordan in exchange for guaranteed British conduct in the north. In return Britain is to receive all existing Ottoman claims in the Persian gulf.
France is to receive direct control over Lebanon and the Sanjak of Alexandretta, hopefully shortstopping any conflicts between Syria and Turkey.
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