AHC: Divided China, part Muslim, part Christian

With your POD after AD 751, your challenge is that, by the year 1751 (so you get a nice even millennium to work with), China should be divided into two major states, one of which is explicitly Muslim, and one of which is explicitly Christian, though both are explicitly Chinese. They should comprise the majority of historical China between them, and should be roughly comparable in size and power. The later the POD, the better, and bonus points for not just having two rival Mongol Khanates form in China, divided by religion.
 
Muslim state in China is achieveable. There's already a sizeable, Sinicized Muslim population in the south as it is, so it won't take that much to get a state out of it. Christianity, however, is a whole different ball game. I'm not even sure how it can make inroads so long as it's tied to European influence and wanton belligerence by said Europeans.
 
Muslim state in China is achieveable. There's already a sizeable, Sinicized Muslim population in the south as it is, so it won't take that much to get a state out of it. Christianity, however, is a whole different ball game. I'm not even sure how it can make inroads so long as it's tied to European influence and wanton belligerence by said Europeans.
Nestorianism is the best bet.By all means though,to get Christianity and Islam entrenched in China,they would be heavily mutated to the point where it's virtually unrecognized by their mainstream counterparts.
 
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Nestorianism is the best bet.By all means though,to get Christianity and Islam entrenched in China,they would be heavily mutated to the point where it's virtually unrecognized ion by their mainstream counterparts.

Isn't this the case OTL for Islam in China, at least in terms of cultural norms associated with the Middle Eastern and Indian traders upended by Sinicization? I'd say the Heavenly Kingdom too, but that's veering way into the lines of a new age religious cult.
 
Isn't this the case OTL for Islam in China, at least in terms of cultural norms associated with the Middle Eastern and Indian traders upended by Sinicization? I'd say the Heavenly Kingdom too, but that's veering way into the lines of a new age religious cult.
The difference is to be acceptance by the mainstream Chinese.To be accepted by the mainstream Chinese,you have to modify the religion a lot,almost syncretise the religion.A lot of rules are likely to be bent,like rules in polygamy for the Christians for example.While depending on the time,you might not see banning of pork and liquor by Chinese Muslims.
 
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The difference is to be acceptance by the mainstream Chinese.To be accepted by the mainstream Chinese,you have to modify the religion a lot,almost syncretise the religion.A lot of rules are likely to be bent,like rules in polygamy for the Christians for example.While depending on the time,you might not see banning of pork and liquor by Chinese Muslims.
Oh Lord, are we gonna re-hash the Querelles des Rites from the XVIIIth century again?

A big problem is also the cult of ancestor, which is a massive issue for a lot of Christian beliefs: idol worship, animism...
 
Oh Lord, are we gonna re-hash the Querelles des Rites from the XVIIIth century again?

A big problem is also the cult of ancestor, which is a massive issue for a lot of Christian beliefs: idol worship, animism...
Not if it's done by a splinter faction of the Nestorians.Like I've mentioned,this is the kind of thing that needs to be done by what the Church of the West considers as heretics.
 
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Just a few facts about Chinese Muslims (aka Huis, though that just meant Muslim in general in premodern China) and why they were on both the literal and metaphorical fringes of Chinese society, very unlikely to successfully convert China to Islam. You'd need someone like Timur to have an Islamic China.

The two areas in Early Modern China with large Muslim minorities were impoverished frontiers, the northwest and the southwest. Perhaps for this reason, most Muslims remained relatively isolated from the centers of Chinese civilization; Gansu, a province with an exceptionally high Muslim population, did not produce anyone who passed the lowest degree of civil service examinations between 1644 and 1702, and by the late 18th century 80% of people who took the exams in Gansu were immigrants from the lower Yangzi trying to take advantage of the Qing government's affirmative action. My point is that most Muslims had very little access to the centers of Chinese civilization.

For learned Muslims in these regions, Arabic and Persian were the prestige languages of religion even if Chinese was the vernacular. The hajji Ma Dexin in the 19th century wrote the account of his pilgrimage in Arabic, for example. This meant that Muslim intellectuals in Gansu and Chinese intellectuals in Gansu worked in two different cultural universes. Perhaps because of this, Chinese Muslims made few, if any, attempts to convert other Chinese to Islam (the Qing also outlawed conversion eventually). Few Chinese converted to Islam without marrying into Muslim families, and those who did did so mainly to strengthen commercial connections with Malays or Central Asians. Chinese Muslims were not unlike European Jews in this way.

Pilgrims and revitalizers regularly made efforts to reform Chinese Islam, meaning that although Chinese Islam did become quite syncretistic even in the west, it was impossible for Islam in western China to become nearly as Sinicized as Chinese Buddhism. In the 16th century, the Muslim educator and reformer Hu Dengzhou systematized religious education into an orthodox Sunni Islam of the Hanafi school. Sufism had great success after the 17th and 18th centuries, especially under two successive waves of Naqshibandi Sufism from Mecca itself (the Khufiyya order, which arrived with Ma Laichi in the 1730s, and the Jahriyya order of Ma Mingxin in the 1760s). This doesn't apply to the Muslims living in the economic heartland of China in the lower Yangzi, but then most Muslims didn't live in the lower Yangzi.

Chinese Islam was rather distrusted by the Chinese. Muslims were "familiar strangers," and Han Chinese periodically petitioned Qing emperors to ban Islam altogether (thankfully, the Manchus accepted Islam as falling within the boundaries of civilization, although the arrival of the Jahriyya did lead to increasing government Islamophobia).

Overall, I do not find the Chinese Muslims a good way to ensure a Muslim China. Yes, there are the lower Yangzi Muslims who were well-integrated into Chinese civilization - but they are too few of them for them to create a Muslim China, nor did they wish to (Confucian-Muslim philosophers like Liu Zhi sought to advocate for Islam and prove that it was compatible with Confucianism, for instance envisioning Muhammad as an example of a Confucian sage, but they did not attempt a full-on campaign to convert the Chinese, nor would Chinese society have looked kindly on them).
 

Deleted member 67076

Nestorianism is the best bet.By all means though,to get Christianity and Islam entrenched in China,they would be heavily mutated to the point where it's virtually unrecognized by their mainstream counterparts.
Oh that's not too hard.

There's insane amounts of precedence for syncretic Islamic beliefs in West Africa that have transitioned into a more orthodox Islam after centuries.
 
Oh that's not too hard.

There's insane amounts of precedence for syncretic Islamic beliefs in West Africa that have transitioned into a more orthodox Islam after centuries.
That's because they don't have to contend with Confucianism and that they are close to the Arab world to be influenced by it.China's basically a world of it's own,and it is unlikely to be influenced by the Arabs the same way West Africa was.Look at the Buddhism practiced in China and the Buddhism practiced in India and you will see the difference.You also don't quite understand Chinese culture.In China,Buddha became some form of deity worshipped along with Taoist gods like the Guan Yu.People worship different gods from different religions and can flip between them.For Islam and Christianity to be entrenched in China,you will likely see an individual worshipping the Christian God/Allah and Buddha at the same time.
 

Deleted member 67076

That's because they don't have to contend with Confucianism and that they are close to the Arab world to be influenced by it.China's basically a world of it's own,and it is unlikely to be influenced by the Arabs the same way West Africa was.
It doesn't have to be. West Africa was merely a model that can be followed regarding the integration of the religion via local religious beliefs and practices.

Albeit, in my utter ignorance regarding anything about China that isn't agriculture related, I have to ask: why is Confucianism unable to mesh with Islam? Sharia law tends to integrate much of local custom, for example.

I don't know why it seems unlikely someone would not be able to do a legal reform that bridges the gap between the two.

Look at the Buddhism practiced in China and the Buddhism practiced in India and you will see the difference.You also don't quite understand Chinese culture.In China,Buddha became some form of deity worshipped along with Taoist gods like the Guan Yu.People worship different gods from different religions and can flip between them.
This is West Africa prior to around 1700 before much of the regional wars came and enforced Orthodox Sunni Islam by gunpoint.

For Islam and Christianity to be entrenched in China,you will likely see an individual worshipping the Christian God/Allah and Buddha at the same time.
How is this any different from people in Pre Fulani Jihad Nigeria asking for intermission from both the ancestors and God? Or for syncretizing God with Oshun?
 
It doesn't have to be. West Africa was merely a model that can be followed regarding the integration of the religion via local religious beliefs and practices.

Albeit, in my utter ignorance regarding anything about China that isn't agriculture related, I have to ask: why is Confucianism unable to mesh with Islam? Sharia law tends to integrate much of local custom, for example.

I don't know why it seems unlikely someone would not be able to do a legal reform that bridges the gap between the two.


This is West Africa prior to around 1700 before much of the regional wars came and enforced Orthodox Sunni Islam by gunpoint.


How is this any different from people in Pre Fulani Jihad Nigeria asking for intermission from both the ancestors and God? Or for syncretizing God with Oshun?
Confucianism can have commonality with Islam,such as their attitude in regards to women,but plainly,Confucius himself made it clear that one shouldn't bother too much with any form of deity.At one point he said that he will not discuss anything about deities other than you should ignore them and distance yourself away from them.Some Confucians ignored it and made up the Mandate of Heaven business of course,but most of the gentry and intellectual class never bothered with the Mandate of Heaven nonsense.It's simply there to deceive the masses.Religions claiming to representing the sole God is just seen as looking for trouble.There's plenty of religious rebellions in China to make the ruling class look at it with suspicion.

I also don't think they can afford to eat cows and sheep only as the primary form of meat.In Ancient China,you need cows to work the land while it's hard to get sheep.Wine is also required for ceremonies.Also,in Chinese culture,filial piety is extremely important,more important than worshipping particular gods.
 
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Honestly, the most successful approach I can think of is a conquest of N.China by a strong Islamic nation - my first thought is the Timurids. Let the campaign wait till the spring so that he can recover from his illness - and a combined Yuan/Timurid force invades northern China, with the Yuan later reduced to a vassal state of Timur, or outright conquest. I'm not sure of the stability of such an Empire, but if it establishes a power base in the Chinese half, that starts the process there.

The now broken China has a southern half, which assuming moderate butterfly netting in Europe, could well be outright conquered. Especially if there is an Alt-British India. S.China alone is a much easier conquest - especially using combined Indian and Chinese troops, led by British officers - rather than just trade relations, the intention is to maintain provinces, using China as a captive market. Hopefully as a way to improve revenues to this now East Asian Company doesn't need huge bailouts. Since we're not quite at the British Raj in the TL, I would push for success for the East Indian Country in SEA as well, using the resources and manpower of both to create a push into China.

Keep both of these regimes stable for a reasonable period of time, and through kind ways or cruel, you have an Islamic N.China, Christian S.China that resembles Hong Kong, and likely a Tibetan Protectorate. That and a terrifyingly positioned Company that controls Far East Trade at nearly every point.
 
Honestly, the most successful approach I can think of is a conquest of N.China by a strong Islamic nation - my first thought is the Timurids. Let the campaign wait till the spring so that he can recover from his illness - and a combined Yuan/Timurid force invades northern China, with the Yuan later reduced to a vassal state of Timur, or outright conquest. I'm not sure of the stability of such an Empire, but if it establishes a power base in the Chinese half, that starts the process there.

The now broken China has a southern half, which assuming moderate butterfly netting in Europe, could well be outright conquered. Especially if there is an Alt-British India. S.China alone is a much easier conquest - especially using combined Indian and Chinese troops, led by British officers - rather than just trade relations, the intention is to maintain provinces, using China as a captive market. Hopefully as a way to improve revenues to this now East Asian Company doesn't need huge bailouts. Since we're not quite at the British Raj in the TL, I would push for success for the East Indian Country in SEA as well, using the resources and manpower of both to create a push into China.

Keep both of these regimes stable for a reasonable period of time, and through kind ways or cruel, you have an Islamic N.China, Christian S.China that resembles Hong Kong, and likely a Tibetan Protectorate. That and a terrifyingly positioned Company that controls Far East Trade at nearly every point.
Not happening.It's chances of success is next to Sea Mammal.
 

Deleted member 67076

Confucianism can have commonality with Islam,such as their attitude in regards to women,but plainly,Confucius himself made it clear that one shouldn't bother too much with any form of deity.
OTOH, Mensicus argued that Heaven itself might be a conscious being. So, perhaps there's an opening there?

At one point he said that he will not discuss anything about deities other than you should ignore them and distance yourself away from them.Some Confucians ignored it and made up the Mandate of Heaven business of course,but most of the gentry and intellectual class never bothered with the Mandate of Heaven nonsense.It's simply there to deceive the masses.Religions claiming to representing the sole God is just seen as looking for trouble.There's plenty of religious rebellions in China to make the ruling class look at it with suspicion.
The gentry aren't a hive mind. They never are. If there's a benefit in shifting views, they can do it. Admittedly, such a thing would be a very slow, gradual expansion, but given the right carrot and stick approach (perhaps a major boom with trade with Islamic states?) and scholarly school I would imagine a more "pro Islamic faction"

Or not. I'm spitballing here. Feel free to rip this apart.

I also don't think they can afford to eat cows and sheep only as the primary form of meat.In Ancient China,you need cows to work the land while it's hard to get sheep.Wine is also required for ceremonies.
What about fish, chickens, rabbit and other livestock to supplement the diet? Perhaps importation of new crops to pick up the slack?

Also,in Chinese culture,filial piety is extremely important,more important than worshipping particular gods.
Dunno why this would be set in stone, or necessarily working against instead of alongside Islamic traditions. The Imam can be a fatherly figure, and oftentimes God himself is seen as one.
 
Not happening.It's chances of success is next to Sea Mammal.

After a bit of reading, it looks like you're right - short of some mad miracle or sudden civil war in China. (which could happen, but not likely).

Perhaps a better chance then is that Timur fails his invasion, but survives and ensures a smooth succession in C.Asia and Persia, importing technology and military techniques into his Central Asian Empire.

After serious work to turn Central Asia into a military and economic powerhouse (not a super power, but certainly a threat to Russia, India, and the Ottomans) the state could take advantage of a Chinese civil war, or complacency, backed by a 5th Column of Muslim converts with roots in Central Asia, or a European Company Invasion, (ideally all of these factors), conquers N.China.

Similar ending, but with a Central Asian Empire that later retreats, leaving the former 5th Column element as the main power base of a N.China, with a S.China ruled by said Company.

Although, the impact of a strong, technologically advanced, unit Central Asian state could be as interesting, if not moreso than anything else.

Conversely, you have the Indonesian angle, with that trade relationship creating more native Chinese Muslims, later coming to power, to be later replaced with a Christian community.
 
OTOH, Mensicus argued that Heaven itself might be a conscious being. So, perhaps there's an opening there?
You'd be right. In Vietnam, where the philosophy is pretty close, Christiniasm was a MASSIVE hit despite repression.

The whole concept of Heaven and "divine" worship ties very easily with Christianism. The cult of ancestors can also be repurposed as a cult of saints.

Big problems are the animism part and the whole cult of ancestor, when not repurposed.
 
Set this during the fall of the Ming.

The Southern Ming had some royal converts to Christianity in an attempt to receive aid from the European states. And the Qing, too, were on good terms with the Jesuits.

Li Zicheng, founder of the Shun Dynasty, has been asserted to be a Muslim, or at least raised in such a household.
 

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I feel like the best bet for an Islamic China is for the Yuan to convert. Both the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde had already converted to Islam, so it isn't completely unreasonable to have one of the Yuan emperors convert as well. As for Christianity, we could have the Red Turban Rebellion fail and have a later uprising found a Christian (probably Nestorian) dynasty in southern China.
 
Set this during the fall of the Ming.

The Southern Ming had some royal converts to Christianity in an attempt to receive aid from the European states. And the Qing, too, were on good terms with the Jesuits.

Li Zicheng, founder of the Shun Dynasty, has been asserted to be a Muslim, or at least raised in such a household.
I don't think Li Zicheng,if he is Muslim,could impose Islam on China assuming he is successful in crushing the Manchus.First off,the guy's movement was made up of complete crooks,which led to his eventual downfall.Second point is that his movement doesn't seem to be Muslim at all.

As for Yongli and his family,they converted in a time when they have been largely deserted by the Confucian gentry elite.

In order for a successful conversion to happen,in my opinion,you must make things acceptable to the Confucian elite.
I feel like the best bet for an Islamic China is for the Yuan to convert. Both the Ilkhanate and the Golden Horde had already converted to Islam, so it isn't completely unreasonable to have one of the Yuan emperors convert as well. As for Christianity, we could have the Red Turban Rebellion fail and have a later uprising found a Christian (probably Nestorian) dynasty in southern China.
Like I've mentioned,you need to somehow make things acceptable to the Confucian elite.I do think however that the best chance is indeed from a foreign dynasty.I think it's a bit too late if it's the Yuan Dynasty that tries to do it,given it wasn't accepted by the Confucians at all.I think the best chance would be if the religion spread among the tribes of Mongolia and modern day Manchuria such that if they managed to form a more organized state like the Jin,Liao or Qing state prior to conquering China,they get to hire more unscrupulous Confucian scholars to produce an Islamic version of Confucianism and then force it upon the rest of the gentry class through threat of violence or exclusion from government.

Trying to impose Islam or Christianity through native peasant rebellions most likely wouldn't work.By all means,the Red Turban Rebellion was actually a Manichaean movement.For a peasant rebellion to succeed,they most have some form of support from the gentry(unless you are communist).The level of support from the gentry must be more so than an organized foreign state like the Liao,the Jin Dynasty or the Qing Dynasty,since unlike those guys,you have to rely entirely upon the Confucian learned class to staff your bureaucracy and officer class(the foreigners get to staff the army and the bureaucracy with their already Islamised or Christianized tribesmen if they gentry aren't supportive).To get the support of the gentry,you most have something that's acceptable for them,that means you need to get rid of your heterodox beliefs.Zhu Yuanzhang,despite his appalling relationship with the Confucian gentry class,had to discard his Zoroastrian roots in order to be accepted.

You'd be right. In Vietnam, where the philosophy is pretty close, Christiniasm was a MASSIVE hit despite repression.

The whole concept of Heaven and "divine" worship ties very easily with Christianism. The cult of ancestors can also be repurposed as a cult of saints.

Big problems are the animism part and the whole cult of ancestor, when not repurposed.
I don't know enough about Vietnam to comment on it,other than that I don't think the conditions within Vietnam is similar to the conditions within China at all.China's a much larger country than Vietnam and it's susceptibility to foreign influences is likely less than Vietnam,especially in the inland areas which form the most of the country.

After a bit of reading, it looks like you're right - short of some mad miracle or sudden civil war in China. (which could happen, but not likely).

Perhaps a better chance then is that Timur fails his invasion, but survives and ensures a smooth succession in C.Asia and Persia, importing technology and military techniques into his Central Asian Empire.

After serious work to turn Central Asia into a military and economic powerhouse (not a super power, but certainly a threat to Russia, India, and the Ottomans) the state could take advantage of a Chinese civil war, or complacency, backed by a 5th Column of Muslim converts with roots in Central Asia, or a European Company Invasion, (ideally all of these factors), conquers N.China.

Similar ending, but with a Central Asian Empire that later retreats, leaving the former 5th Column element as the main power base of a N.China, with a S.China ruled by said Company.

Although, the impact of a strong, technologically advanced, unit Central Asian state could be as interesting, if not moreso than anything else.

Conversely, you have the Indonesian angle, with that trade relationship creating more native Chinese Muslims, later coming to power, to be later replaced with a Christian community.
I think Central Asia is the wrong direction to expand into China since the North West of China is a fairly harsh environment and that it's full of mountain passes that could be defended easily whereas to the north(Mongolia etc),once you are past the Great Wall region,you can expand easily.

OTOH, Mensicus argued that Heaven itself might be a conscious being. So, perhaps there's an opening there?


The gentry aren't a hive mind. They never are. If there's a benefit in shifting views, they can do it. Admittedly, such a thing would be a very slow, gradual expansion, but given the right carrot and stick approach (perhaps a major boom with trade with Islamic states?) and scholarly school I would imagine a more "pro Islamic faction"

Or not. I'm spitballing here. Feel free to rip this apart.


What about fish, chickens, rabbit and other livestock to supplement the diet? Perhaps importation of new crops to pick up the slack?


Dunno why this would be set in stone, or necessarily working against instead of alongside Islamic traditions. The Imam can be a fatherly figure, and oftentimes God himself is seen as one.
Only time the Confucians will budge is when a foreign invader with his own power-base is coming in with hard force and willing to accept a version of Confucianism that's modified according to their taste.

It's entirely a different matter of course if you try to make a syncretised religion.I think the only way that a native dynasty can get Christianized or Islamised prior to the early modern era would be through syncretization.
 
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