AHC: Divided Anatolia

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Since the collapse of the Sultanate of Rum in the 14th century, and all the way up until around the final conquest of the Mamaluk Sultanate of Cairo, the region of Anatolia was divided between various Turkish Beyliks, the two most powerful being the Karamanids and the even more powerful Ottomans.

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, with the PoD being anywhere from 1356 and 1521, keep Anatolia divided, either through a two state scenario (which is a viable option), or through multiple beyliks, such as the Saruhanids, Dulkadirids, Mentese and Candarids.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Oh I forgot that, let's say until Nationalism starts to kick in in earnest, so around say the 18th or 19th century.
 
Stefan Dusan takes the Byzantine throne in the 1340s and a revival of a sort takes place, with Bithynia and Ionia reintegrated into the Orthodox Empire. Decline recommences after about 1500, though, due to the growth in power of Western European states able to access Atlantic gold. The Byzantino-Serbian state eventually breaks apart into civil war in the 1530s, with Constantinople eventually ending up a possession of the Portuguese crown.

Trebizond meanwhile maintains her independence thanks to an alliance with Georgia, and by the sixteenth century this Pontic state dominates NE Anatolia and the Crimea. With a strong identity building as the one true remnant of the Roman Empire, the Trapezuntine state continues to thrive as the centuries progress.

Without access to the Aegean, Turkish power in Anatolia comes to be dominated by the city of Antalya, and the Sultanate based here is able to project power across the Mediterranean, acting as an Islamic equivalent to the Italian merchant states, projecting power inland through its vassals too. When the age of nationalism eventually arrives in the 1820s, it is naturally Antalya that becomes the great unifier of the Turkish peoples, although Cappadocia continues to exist with a degree of independence, eventually emerging as a secular nation state.

The Knights of St. John on Rhodes manage to carve out a small chunk of the coast of SE Anatolia, as well as various Aegean Isles and, after the Mediterranean War of the 1740s between Portugal, Venice, Egypt and Sicily, they manage to grab Crete too. The Knights are eventually overthrown in a revolution in 1813, which sees the establishment of a secular federal republic governed from Rhodes, before the capital is transferred to a setpiece rebuilt city of Halicarnassus in 1838.

How's this?
 
Does it have to be divided among ethnic Turks, or can it involve other peoples? It seems to me that the most obvious option for a divided Anatolia is an east/west division approximately following the Euphrates, with Turks in the west and Kurds in the east. But we can complicate the picture by wanking the Greeks and Russians.

First arrange for the Ottoman Empire to dissolve a century earlier, so as to coincide with the height of Russian interference in the Caucasus and European interference in Greece. Ethnic Turks find themselves squeezed on one side by revanchist Greeks and on the other side by rapacious Russians. The Russians set up a Kurdish client state and a Pontic colony. The latter becomes populated by Russian settlers, essentially turning into Crimea South. Meanwhile in the west, Europeans provide Greeks with the muscle to implement the Megali Idea. In the course of retaking Ionia and Constantinople, they commit ethnic cleansing against Aegean Turks.

In the end, Anatolia is divided four ways: the Aegean region, now incorporated into Greece; the west-central region, ruled by the squabbling successors of the Ottomans; Kurdistan, in the Russian sphere of influence; and the Pontic region, under direct Russian administration.

It could become even more complicated if there is a fragmentation of the Turkish zone.
 
Stefan Dusan takes the Byzantine throne in the 1340s and a revival of a sort takes place, with Bithynia and Ionia reintegrated into the Orthodox Empire. Decline recommences after about 1500, though, due to the growth in power of Western European states able to access Atlantic gold. The Byzantino-Serbian state eventually breaks apart into civil war in the 1530s, with Constantinople eventually ending up a possession of the Portuguese crown.

Trebizond meanwhile maintains her independence thanks to an alliance with Georgia, and by the sixteenth century this Pontic state dominates NE Anatolia and the Crimea. With a strong identity building as the one true remnant of the Roman Empire, the Trapezuntine state continues to thrive as the centuries progress.

Without access to the Aegean, Turkish power in Anatolia comes to be dominated by the city of Antalya, and the Sultanate based here is able to project power across the Mediterranean, acting as an Islamic equivalent to the Italian merchant states, projecting power inland through its vassals too. When the age of nationalism eventually arrives in the 1820s, it is naturally Antalya that becomes the great unifier of the Turkish peoples, although Cappadocia continues to exist with a degree of independence, eventually emerging as a secular nation state.

The Knights of St. John on Rhodes manage to carve out a small chunk of the coast of SE Anatolia, as well as various Aegean Isles and, after the Mediterranean War of the 1740s between Portugal, Venice, Egypt and Sicily, they manage to grab Crete too. The Knights are eventually overthrown in a revolution in 1813, which sees the establishment of a secular federal republic governed from Rhodes, before the capital is transferred to a setpiece rebuilt city of Halicarnassus in 1838.

How's this?

That is a really interesting scenario. Have you considered writing a full-scale timeline?

Or even a book set in this world?
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Tell ya what, I'll allow other peoples, Greeks, Georgians, Egyptian and Levantine Arabs and the like.

Basileus' scenario seems to be a quite interesting scenario, though why would Portugal want to take Constantinople? I would assume Aragon or one of the Italian states would be a more viable alternative. This would make for an interesting Trapezuntine-wank and a lesser wank for the Knights and Serbia.
 
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If Anatolia is still divided whenever a resurgent Persian Empire might form, then it is more likely to stay divided.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
If Anatolia is still divided whenever a resurgent Persian Empire might form, then it is more likely to stay divided.

True, that's actually one case of ensuring a surviving Anatolian beyliks or a divided Anatolia in general. Though within the timeframe, I don't know how possible it is without Timur gumming up the works, unless he can actually prove to not be like Alexander the Great and watch it collapse as soon as he croaks.
 
Im thinking the easiest way to keep Anatolia divided would be to maintain the pattern of Greeks doing well vs Turks doing well. Both sides push and pull but never pull out on top. Perhaps no fourth crusade makes the Greeks more able to fight back rather than collapsing completely.

A few other possible states that could be thrown in to balkanise it more is Cilician Armenia, a larger Caucasian Armenia (controling parts of eastern Anatolia), a Kurdish nation, independent Trebizond, and maybe a crusader state or two like the previously suggested Knights of Saint John, since they were in Rhodes IOTL after all, right next to Anatolia.

All the above mentioned nations (Save the knights) could easily stay alive past the rise of nationalism since they all have a unique culture, or in the case of Trebizond, will have one by the 1820s.
 
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Dursan claims Byzantium in the mid-1300s while the House of Osman suffers when two of its scions battle amongst themselves to the point their government no longer has the capacity for expansion. Slowly and with Serbian help the Byzantines reclaim most of Greece, OTL Albania, and OTL Buglaria along with Serbia and Macedonia before heading east into western Anatolia. With the trade routes on the Silk Road in decline and the rise of the Russian state, the amount of wealth going through this area declines especially in the face of internecine wars.

By 1600:
*A weaker but existant Byzantine Empire controls most of the southern Balkans and the western third of Anatolia (just west of Sinope to just west of Antalya).
*Trebizond controls the northern coast from Sinope to Georgia, with which it enters a dynastic union that eventually grows to include much of the western Caucasus.
*House of Osman controls much of the center of the peninsula
*A new Sultanate of Antalya controls the southern shores from that city to Alexandretta
*Eastern Anatolia is ruled as part of a weaker Kingdom of Kurdistan, itself a puppet caught between Persia and Egypt who assumes control over much of the Levant
*Parts of northeastern Anatolia come under control of Armenia, which is eventually overrun by Persia

By 1750 Trebizond and Byzantium have "reforged the line" and the empires of both are united. This sparks a war with a combined House of Osman and Sultanate of Antalya that proves costly for both sides while little changes, the resulting Treaty of Konya settles the borders close to the pre-war frontier and the only net benefit is a lasting peace. This will eventually grow into a profitable trade treaty and even defensive alliance, resulting in the later First Lebanon War that sees Byzantium reclaim Crete and Cyprus from Egypt while the House of Osman claims much of Syria and Lebanon. With the merger of the House of Osman and Sultanate of Antalya the Ottoman Empire is founded in 1776, ironically becoming the first nation to recognize an American ship as a neutral trading vessel when the British try to claim it in the harbor at Antalya.

With Persia a looming threat in the east and Hungary a looming threat in the west along side a common threat of Russia to the north the defensive treaty works well for both sides, even surviving the test of Napoleon's ambition and the following wars with Russia as the latter tried to annex the Balkans.
 
That's an interesting scenario too, although this dynastic union thing seems to work out a little too well for the Byzantines.

Still, it's plausible. They're all Orthodox countries, right?
 
What about Armenia taking a huge chunk of Anatolia? There were a lot of Armenians living in Anatolia before the Armenian Genocide took place.
 
By 1750 Trebizond and Byzantium have "reforged the line" and the empires of both are united. This sparks a war with a combined House of Osman and Sultanate of Antalya that proves costly for both sides while little changes, the resulting Treaty of Konya settles the borders close to the pre-war frontier and the only net benefit is a lasting peace. This will eventually grow into a profitable trade treaty and even defensive alliance, resulting in the later First Lebanon War that sees Byzantium reclaim Crete and Cyprus from Egypt while the House of Osman claims much of Syria and Lebanon. With the merger of the House of Osman and Sultanate of Antalya the Ottoman Empire is founded in 1776, ironically becoming the first nation to recognize an American ship as a neutral trading vessel when the British try to claim it in the harbor at Antalya.

With Persia a looming threat in the east and Hungary a looming threat in the west along side a common threat of Russia to the north the defensive treaty works well for both sides, even surviving the test of Napoleon's ambition and the following wars with Russia as the latter tried to annex the Balkans.

Other than butterflies issues (Napoleon and America being mentioned), it seems quite sound. Although wouldn't Byzantium and Russia be more co-operative and possibly fight Persia?
 
A funny out come would be if a Byzantine or Bulgarian state held on to the peninsula up to Nicomedia and the rest was taken by a Turkish state. A reversal of OTL Turkish state controlling Constantinople and a bit of Thrace.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
What about Armenia taking a huge chunk of Anatolia? There were a lot of Armenians living in Anatolia before the Armenian Genocide took place.

Primarily because Caucasian Armenia did not exist as a state and Cicilian Armenia was not really in a powerful position to gain the Caucasian portions.
 
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