AHC:Dissolve the U.S.A. during the XIX century.

TFSmith121

Banned
And that power would have been...what, again?

Perhaps, But it does Answer your Question ...

If, at ANY Time, a Larger Power had Simply Decided The United States was Not to be ...

Well, America Delenda Est!

Rome had a hard time "delending" that particular city state, after all....

Best,
 
Rome had a hard time "delending" that particular city state, after all..

Yes but they did because they were determined that they should. So if in the mid nineteenth century Britain, it was by then the only power that stood a chance of doing so, had decided that it had to destroy the USA to the exclusion of all else then IF NO ONE ELSE took advantage of that fact(which is to say the least very unlikely) it could have done so. It would probably have lost India, anything in Africa and bits and pieces elsewhere but it would have destroyed the US.

The US has had a charmed life since the revolution in that by the time it really badly annoyed other countries( end of the 19th century) it was strong enough to resist them and make even giving it a bloody nose more bother than it was worth. Before then the one power that could do it some harm had its focus elsewhere. (Remember that the revolution is the revolution not the rebellion nor another British Civil War because France essentially bankrupted itself to give the British a bloody nose after the Seven Years War.)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Please, explain...

Yes but they did because they were determined that they should. So if in the mid nineteenth century Britain, it was by then the only power that stood a chance of doing so, had decided that it had to destroy the USA to the exclusion of all else then IF NO ONE ELSE took advantage of that fact(which is to say the least very unlikely) it could have done so. It would probably have lost India, anything in Africa and bits and pieces elsewhere but it would have destroyed the US.

The US has had a charmed life since the revolution in that by the time it really badly annoyed other countries( end of the 19th century) it was strong enough to resist them and make even giving it a bloody nose more bother than it was worth. Before then the one power that could do it some harm had its focus elsewhere. (Remember that the revolution is the revolution not the rebellion nor another British Civil War because France essentially bankrupted itself to give the British a bloody nose after the Seven Years War.)

  1. What is the international political goal?
  2. What are the military forces required to achieve that goal?
  3. What are the economic costs of raising, deploying, and sustaining those forces?
  4. What are the domestic political alliances needed to achieve 1-3, above?
  5. How likely is 1-4, above, to come about, in any universe resembling the one we live in?
Absent thermonuclear weapons in the Nineteenth Century, good luck.

Best,
 
  1. What is the international political goal?
  2. What are the military forces required to achieve that goal?
  3. What are the economic costs of raising, deploying, and sustaining those forces?
  4. What are the domestic political alliances needed to achieve 1-3, above?
  5. How likely is 1-4, above, to come about, in any universe resembling the one we live in?
Absent thermonuclear weapons in the Nineteenth Century, good luck.

Best,

Ok Here goes.
1.After the revolution Britain decides that the continued existence of the USA is a stain on British History and all efforts should be made to expunge said stain.
2.During the 1780s and 1790s Britain builds up its armies in Canada. It still develops a trade empire but all is channelled into building forces in Canada and also building up the Navy even more than OTL.
3. After Napoleon comes out on top in the French Revolution, Britain comes to an agreement he has a free hand in Europe and leaves Britain and her territories alone. Yes it is dealing with the devil but the US must be expunged from history.
4. 1803 Britain makes the Louisiana Purchase. It offers Napoleon a price he cannot refuse.
5. 1804 onwards Britain builds up its forces in Louisiana as well as Canada.
6. 1812 war takes place. Invasion from Canada and Louisiana, blockade by larger RN
7. 1814 US surrenders

Is this likely -definitely not in a reality near us, but it has occurred somewhere in another quantum reality, much as there is one in which by 1812 the US has all Canada and by 1850 it has all Mexico.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yeah, number 3 is the one that is insurmountable

Ok Here goes.
1.After the revolution Britain decides that the continued existence of the USA is a stain on British History and all efforts should be made to expunge said stain.
2.During the 1780s and 1790s Britain builds up its armies in Canada. It still develops a trade empire but all is channelled into building forces in Canada and also building up the Navy even more than OTL.
3. After Napoleon comes out on top in the French Revolution, Britain comes to an agreement he has a free hand in Europe and leaves Britain and her territories alone. Yes it is dealing with the devil but the US must be expunged from history.
4. 1803 Britain makes the Louisiana Purchase. It offers Napoleon a price he cannot refuse.
5. 1804 onwards Britain builds up its forces in Louisiana as well as Canada.
6. 1812 war takes place. Invasion from Canada and Louisiana, blockade by larger RN
7. 1814 US surrenders

Is this likely -definitely not in a reality near us, but it has occurred somewhere in another quantum reality, much as there is one in which by 1812 the US has all Canada and by 1850 it has all Mexico.

Yeah, number 3 is the one that is insurmountable. Europe was always more important than anywhere else to Britain; the difference between being 30 miles away and being 3,000 miles away.

Best,
 
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Yeah, number 3 is the one that is insurmountable. Europe was always more important than anywhere else to Britain; the difference between being 30 miles away and being 3,000 miles awat.

Best,

Why?
This Britain (which admittedly has more than one screw loose), will have made the calculation that a combination of Russia, Austria and Prussia will keep Napoleon tied down for years, if not eventually defeat him. Time enough to deal with him after the US.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
"This Britain" ...

Why?
This Britain (which admittedly has more than one screw loose), will have made the calculation that a combination of Russia, Austria and Prussia will keep Napoleon tied down for years, if not eventually defeat him. Time enough to deal with him after the US.

"This Britain" ...would not be the Britain we know and love from 1783 onward, true?

Best,
 
"This Britain" ...would not be the Britain we know and love from 1783 onward, true?

Best,
No it wouldn't and I don't think that this one would miss TTL equivalent of 1848.(If it hadn't already been brought down by a Second American Revolution)
I definitely wouldn't want to live there.
 
One can posit reasonably that if the Articles of Confederation had survived (and the OP says that PoDs can be after 1776, it's just that the actual dissolution has to take place in the 19th century) then the USA might have struggled along until disputes between states caused it to actually disbanding sometime early in the 19th century.

Such a failure is certainly possible, but it fails the OP's requirement that "there mustn't be any part on the north american continent that claims to be part of the US, a succesor state, nor an american government in exile."

Unless it totally fragments, this POD still leaves a reduced state that still calls itself the United States. Every state that breaks off, including total fragmentation, is a US successor state.

To match the OP, you then need every one of these successor states to cease to exist as independent entities.
 
The US has had a charmed life since the revolution in that by the time it really badly annoyed other countries( end of the 19th century) it was strong enough to resist them and make even giving it a bloody nose more bother than it was worth.

A war with the US was considered more trouble than it was worth well before that. Mexican conservatives tried to get various European powers to establish a monarchy in Mexico. This was rejected by Lord Aberdeen in 1842 as it was too likely to result in a war with the US that was not in Britains's interests. In 1846, Metternich rejected the same appeal as it was too likely to result in a war with the US that was not in Austria's interests. The appeal was subsequently rejected by a second time by Britain, by Spain, and initially by Napoleon III, rejected a second time in 1857, and only accepted in 1861 because the US Civil War meant they would not intervene.
 
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