AHC:Dissolve the U.S.A. during the XIX century.

Deleted member 67076

What's interesting, though, is that both Mexico and Argentina survived as federal states, including bringing the various separatist movements (Yucatan and the split between Buenos Aires and the interior) back into their respective federations. There is something to be said for hanging together in the face of threats, true?

Gran Colombia/New Granada/Granadine Confederation/Colombia is something of a unique case, given the topographical and geographical challenges inherent in the northwestern corner of South America.


And again, you keep using the word "luck" which really is not a useful term when it comes to the social sciences. There is no such thing.

Which is illustrated by your chosen example - it was not chance that De Grasse' fleet showed up when and where it did; it was the result of policy, determined by the reality of France's national interests coinciding with those of the American revolutionaries.

Which in turn, had bene determined by a variety of actions, not the least being the American victories at Boston and Saratoga.

Which, again, suggest that it was not luck that resulted in US independence, but rational policymaking, strategy, and a deep understanding of the macro-scale factors that influenced the inability of a European nation state to project and sustain military power in North America sufficient to force a political settlement to its satisfaction.

Which never happened in a lasting manner, in fact, across the entire period of human history, from the late Eighteenth Century onward, despite repeated attempts by various European powers to do just that...

Including Britain - at least three times (1775-83, 1806-07, and 1812-15).

Cripes, Revolutionary and Napoleonic France could not "dissolve" Haiti; why anyone thinks Britain could have "dissolved" the United States at any point in the late Eighteenth Century (much less at any point in the Nineteenth) is presumably a question best answered by those who keep advancing it.

One would think, at any rate.

Best,
Actually, geography isn't so hard to overcome. Its real problems lay with political infighting and mismanagement due to the way Spain divided and administered the regions; you have Venezuelans whose policies were more centered towards liberalism and you had Quito who wanted an protectionist economy like that of New England, and Colombians who were split in the middle, among other things, which was only compounded by the highly centralized government that didn't allow for compromises.

Gran Colombia is actually fairly easy to salvage with the right POD. I'd say even with a POD of 1827 you could save it.

As Cthulu has mentioned, its a case of very bad luck that caused the union to collapse.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Perhaps, but not having a sea route from one end to

Actually, geography isn't so hard to overcome. Its real problems lay with political infighting and mismanagement due to the way Spain divided and administered the regions; you have Venezuelans whose policies were more centered towards liberalism and you had Quito who wanted an protectionist economy like that of New England, and Colombians who were split in the middle, among other things, which was only compounded by the highly centralized government that didn't allow for compromises.

Gran Colombia is actually fairly easy to salvage with the right POD. I'd say even with a POD of 1827 you could save it.

I would say that it was merely bad luck that caused the union to collapse.


Perhaps, but not having a reasonable sea route from one end to the other in the early Nineteenth Century, plus having the Andes running through the middle, makes it pretty difficult, I think.

The Peru-Bolivia confederation is another example, and they actually had a sea connection.

Best,
 
What's interesting, though, is that both Mexico and Argentina survived as federal states, including bringing the various separatist movements (Yucatan and the split between Buenos Aires and the interior) back into their respective federations. There is something to be said for hanging together in the face of threats, true? ,

Mexico lost huge chunks of its territory to separatism (not counting the American invasion here): Texas, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica all used to be part of Mexico.

Argentina lost Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Bolivia.

And again, you keep using the word "luck" which really is not a useful term when it comes to the social sciences. There is no such thing.
Which is illustrated by your chosen example - it was not chance that De Grasse' fleet showed up when and where it did; it was the result of policy, determined by the reality of France's national interests coinciding with those of the American revolutionaries.

IIRC correctly, I said "luck and outside forces". Franco-Spanish intervention was, as you said (typed?), policy, not chance. But if the French government had decided that staying stable financially was more important than one-upping Britain, the US might never have existed.

Which in turn, had bene determined by a variety of actions, not the least being the American victories at Boston and Saratoga.

Which, again, suggest that it was not luck that resulted in US independence, but rational policymaking, strategy, and a deep understanding of the macro-scale factors that influenced the inability of a European nation state to project and sustain military power in North America sufficient to force a political settlement to its satisfaction. .

There was a great deal of luck and British error that allowed the revolutionaries to win many of their battles, though. Look at Bunker Hill, where the British general refused to listen to his advisers. If he had, the revolutionaries might have been crushed. Or Washington's near-miraculous escape from Brooklyn, where British ships arrived on the East River only seconds after the last American boats reached Manhattan. If it hadn't been so foggy that night, or the British ships had gone on patrol a minute or two earlier, Washington himself would have been captured, along with most of his army.

You have a good point about the difficulty of power projection in North America. However, Britain still managed to torch DC and destroy the American offensives into Canada with little difficulty. There was already open talk of secession in the north before Napoleon's return to France convinced the British to pack it up and go home.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
I would argue that Texas "was" an American invasion; most

Mexico lost huge chunks of its territory to separatism (not counting the American invasion here): Texas, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica all used to be part of Mexico.

Argentina lost Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Bolivia.



IIRC correctly, I said "luck and outside forces". Franco-Spanish intervention was, as you said (typed?), policy, not chance. But if the French government had decided that staying stable financially was more important than one-upping Britain, the US might never have existed.



There was a great deal of luck and British error that allowed the revolutionaries to win many of their battles, though. Look at Bunker Hill, where the British general refused to listen to his advisers. If he had, the revolutionaries might have been crushed. Or Washington's near-miraculous escape from Brooklyn, where British ships arrived on the East River only seconds after the last American boats reached Manhattan. If it hadn't been so foggy that night, or the British ships had gone on patrol a minute or two earlier, Washington himself would have been captured, along with most of his army.

You have a good point about the difficulty of power projection in North America. However, Britain still managed to torch DC and destroy the American offensives into Canada with little difficulty. There was already open talk of secession in the north before Napoleon's return to France convinced the British to pack it up and go home.

I would argue that Texas "was" an American invasion; most of the Latin American historians I know would as well, although there was a separatist element as well - Tejanos (just like the Californios) had a mixed relationship with Mexico City, to put it charitably.

As far as Central America and the Rioplatine republics, there is/was always a period of national consolidation after independence; something worth asking is if Central America was really ever Mexico's to lose, much less the RP nations.

Not to harp on this, but "luck" is made in military operations by the side that does the right thing, generally ahead of when the balloon goes up; at most, a certain level of chance is to be expected, and the side with the perceptive commander(s) understands that - "friction" will always occurr. Taking advantage of it when it does is the real key, and that's not due to luck.

Thanks for the compliment, but come on, the burning of DC had about as much impact on the course of the 1812-15 conflict as the bombing of London in 1940 did on WW II; simply by giving the defenders something to rally around (as witness the British failure at Baltimore/Hampstead Hill), ultimately it was a self-defeating move by the British, as Ross learned, quite personally, at North Point.

As did Prevost at Lake Champlain/Plattsburgh, and Pakenham at New Orleans.

From a geostrategiC point of view, the most significant impact of the war of 1812-15 was the destruction of (at the time) Britain's most loyal and militarily efficient allies on the North American continent, which was (from the American point of view) certainly a victory more significant than any other, by cementing both the Old Northwest and Old Southwest, Florida, and the Louisiana Purchase...Tecumseh's death led to all of the above being achieved significantly more quickly than otherwise, probably on the order of a decade or more.

Given the pace of change, economic and otherwise, in the Nineteenth Century, that was quite a victory for the United States, actually.

Best,
 
As did Prevost at Lake Champlain/Plattsburgh, and Pakenham at New Orleans.

If Prevost had done anything other than sit on hands, Plattsburgh would have been a huge Anglo/Canadian victory. A very capable administrator, but an awful military strategist.

Having said that, given how much he dithered OTL, I doubt if he'd be able to follow it up in any meaningful way.
 

Deleted member 67076

Perhaps, but not having a reasonable sea route from one end to the other in the early Nineteenth Century, plus having the Andes running through the middle, makes it pretty difficult, I think.

The Peru-Bolivia confederation is another example, and they actually had a sea connection.

Best,
Mountain passes yo.
 
Except that a given nation state surviving one existential crisis may be chance, or even something one could lay to particular events or even individuals.

Surviving four such existential crises (Revolution, change from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution, 1812-15 war, and 1861-65 war), as the poster outlined, suggests something else, does it not?

No, not really. Indeed, four is a very small number of existential crises by the standards of most nations. For the Habsburg domain, as it existed in various forms, we could undoubtedly find far, far more than four (the Habsburgs fought quite a lot of wars that could have gone much more badly for them in the 19th century alone) and yet that didn't save the Habsburgs. The War of 1812 doesn't even count as an existential crisis; the British didn't especially intend to reconquer the United States so far as I know, merely to stop the USA from fighting them after it declared war on them (whatever one thinks of US justification in doing so, on which I will not comment here lest I go too far off-topic again, it is undeniable that the USA chose to go to war whereas the UK did not deliberately start it), preserve Canada-to-be, claim some border territories (Maine, perhaps?) and perhaps constrain US expansionism at the expense of the Native Americans (if one holds the belief that the British ever truly intended to remain loyal to the Indian Confederacy rather than using Tecumseh as a useful patsy). That's not an existential crisis.

The point of all this is not to argue that the USA was an especially unstable, but, rather, to argue that surviving multiple existential crises is not a particular indicator of an ability to always survive future crises.

Are you genuinely contending that the USA could never have fallen with any PoD, even as far back as 1776? The most obvious answer is British victory in the American Revolutionary War, which was far from impossible (there are multiple battles where, had they gone differently in manners that were far from impossible, the Americans would have lost the war) and was, arguably, at least as probable as what actually happened IOTL; in the event of a British victory in that war, Great Britain's American colonies might well have achieved independence in a later war (indeed I'd argue that later American independence is very likely indeed in that scenario) but any independent American nation(s) in that scenario would be very unlikely to be the same as OTL's United States.

In fact, one might event make the judgment it reveals a truism, as in the Americas (including the United States, of course) occupy a fairly unique geographic niche - continent-wide (mostly) temperate bands, close enough to Europe and Africa to benefit immensely from the eastern hemisphere's population "sending" ability, and yet far enough away to be safe from the political and military power of Europe.

Gran Colombia was also in the Americas. Geography doesn't make it impossible for a polity to collapse. If (e.g.) the various northeastern US states don't give up their claims on one another and the federal government stays exceedingly weak due to a retention of the Articles of Confederation, with such things as the federal government never assuming state debts, I am yet to be convinced that the USA will stay together just because it did IOTL; 'general resilience' is rather vague.

Which is why, for example, European efforts to control the Western Hemisphere, once the "locals" were more or less autarkies, all failed - continually and repeatedly.

IOTL, yes. I daresay the existence and the power of the United States had quite a lot to do with that. And the fact that France acted exceedingly foolishly and unsubtly in Mexico doesn't mean that all hypothetical European powers would always act in such a manner in all possible ATLs.

If (for example) the USA hadn't cared at all about Venezuela and a major European power had intervened there, do you imagine that the Venezuelans would have won? If some European power rather than the USA had exerted imperialism against Colombia and chosen to break off Panama, do you imagine that the Colombians would have won? Perhaps in the long term, a few decades later, and perhaps the European power would withraw later of its own accord if it had some other reason to do so; but that applies to US interventions just as to European ones. But there is no never-failing axiom which says that nations in the Americas must always defeat European powers trying to control them. There is a general advantage of being an ocean away, I do not and will not dispute that, but I remain unconvinced that that advantage is an unbeatable one in all possible ATLs.

Also, if you hold to the position that all those efforts failed, I'd be interested to see how you would describe the period of 'informal empire'.

It also suggests why, despite the above, the Western Hemisphere republics generally remained concerned enough regarding the European threat to manage to hang together

As the USA and Mexico hung together? As the various Spanish-speaking states of the Americas hung together? As the constituent parts of Gran Colombia hung together?

And lest I be tarred with one particularly dark brush, it is possible to argue that the USA was not historically invincible without being a neo-Confederate apologist and without holding any personal bad feelings towards the USA, just as it is possible to argue (on ground more familiar to me) that Prussia could have failed to unify Germany without holding any personal bad feelings towards either Prussia or Germany.
 
It's pretty easy to do, especially in the early years.

1778: Britain wins the American Revolution.

1789: Constitutional Convention fails.

1812: Britain crushes the US in the War of 1812.

1861: The South survives the Civil War.

None of these fit the OP. The first two are not 19th century PODs and the last three do not ensure that "there mustn't be any part on the north american continent that claims to be part of the US, a succesor state, nor an american government in exile."
 
The south surviving the Civil War is unlikely, but the fact that nearly half the country was willing to secede ruins the "resilient and unified power" argument.

The Confederacy was less than 1/3d of the US population. About 40% of Confederate population were slaves, which were not pro-Confederate. About 19& of draft age white men from Confederate states fought for the Union and it's estimated somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of the Confederate white population was pro-Union.

Besides, Confederate independence does not fulfill the OP, as the Union, while weakened, would still exist.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Quite possibly true; except without control of the Lake

If Prevost had done anything other than sit on hands, Plattsburgh would have been a huge Anglo/Canadian victory. A very capable administrator, but an awful military strategist.

Having said that, given how much he dithered OTL, I doubt if he'd be able to follow it up in any meaningful way.

Quite possibly true; except without control of the Lake, and in an era before railroads, his command would have been road-bound.

And the roads of 1814 - even in upstate New York - were probably nothing to write home about, and not sustainable as a supply line for a large force trying to march south.

As the British had learned during the Saratoga campaign...

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Not much use as a communications and transportation network in

Mountain passes yo.

Not much use as a communications and transportation network, absent telegraphs and railroads, in the Nineteenth Century.

Especially in a country that was mostly tropical, and includes a huge percentage of selva, even today.

Having the Isthmus of Panama preventing any sea communications didn;t help, obviously.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Seconding both your posts

The Confederacy was less than 1/3d of the US population. About 40% of Confederate population were slaves, which were not pro-Confederate. About 19& of draft age white men from Confederate states fought for the Union and it's estimated somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of the Confederate white population was pro-Union.

Besides, Confederate independence does not fulfill the OP, as the Union, while weakened, would still exist.

Which both reinforce the point about the resiliency of the US.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
They were not my examples of existential crises, were they?

....The point of all this is not to argue that the USA was an especially unstable, but, rather, to argue that surviving multiple existential crises is not a particular indicator of an ability to always survive future crises....(snip)

They were not my examples of existential crises, were they? I was responding to one of the along-the-way posters. If you don't see them as such, in fact, doesn't that validate my point?

Personally, I would actually posit the Twentieth Century as the most dangerous; thermonuclear warfare would have done in the United States as a nation state (much less the rest of the Western Hemisphere, and the world, for that matter), apparently to anyone's satisfaction.

But that's me.

Absent that, than no, I don't see the United States (as such) being "dissolved" by any outside actors - as I said earlier, France could not "dissolve" Haiti, of all nation states, as such; I find that rather suggestive of the difficulties of European re-imperializing in the Americas.

Economic dominance is an entirely different subject; the OP's own language was "dissolve" in the Nineteenth Century, which, as Fiver points out, actually negates both the Revolution and the Confederation/Constitution crisis.

Best,
 
They were not my examples of existential crises, were they? I was responding to one of the along-the-way posters. If you don't see them as such, in fact, doesn't that validate my point?

If I am not mistaken, your contention was that the fact that the USA survived all of these occasions implies that the USA has a "resilience" which makes it implausible to posit the USA dissolving.

Except that a given nation state surviving one existential crisis may be chance, or even something one could lay to particular events or even individuals.

Surviving four such existential crises (Revolution, change from the Articles of Confederation to the Constitution, 1812-15 war, and 1861-65 war), as the poster outlined, suggests something else, does it not?

If I have misunderstood the above statement and this was not in fact your contention, I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Personally, I would actually posit the Twentieth Century as the most dangerous; thermonuclear warfare would have done in the United States as a nation state (much less the rest of the Western Hemisphere, and the world, for that matter), apparently to anyone's satisfaction.

But that's me.

Oh yes, but "nukes fall, everybody dies" is boring. :p

Absent that, than no, I don't see the United States (as such) being "dissolved" by any outside actors - as I said earlier, France could not "dissolve" Haiti, of all nation states, as such; I find that rather suggestive of the difficulties of European re-imperializing in the Americas.

The OP says

Your mission, should you chose to accept it is to make the
US disappear during the XIX century. You can use only the XIX century and any PoD must be after the declaration of independence in 1776. You can balkanize the country, split it between colonial powers, make it return to english hands, anything

which to me doesn't seem to necessitate a dissolution of it by a foreign power necessarily; indeed, it seems to specifically say that the only condition for how the USA disappears is that it must do so in the 19th century.

Economic dominance is an entirely different subject

My point in raising "informal empire" was specifically to rebut this statement

Which is why, for example, European efforts to control the Western Hemisphere, once the "locals" were more or less autarkies, all failed - continually and repeatedly.

and to suggest, oppositely, that European powers absolutely could succeed in dominating powers in the Americas in the 19th century, sometimes—not that they always succeeded in that, but that they sometimes did and sometimes didn't. In other words, my contention is that European efforts to control the Americas in that era did not "all fail continually and repeatedly".

the OP's own language was "dissolve" in the Nineteenth Century, which, as Fiver points out, actually negates both the Revolution and the Confederation/Constitution crisis.

Best,

One can posit reasonably that if the Articles of Confederation had survived (and the OP says that PoDs can be after 1776, it's just that the actual dissolution has to take place in the 19th century) then the USA might have struggled along until disputes between states caused it to actually disbanding sometime early in the 19th century.

As for the American Revolution, my point was, again, in rebuttal to the original statement you made, which suggested implicitly (and again, forgive me if I misunderstood you) that you believed that there is no way the USA could have disappeared with any post-1776 PoD.

It seems to me that it's not so much the specific challenge posed by the OP that we disagree on (except for the plausibility of the idea that a continuation of the Articles of Confederation could have led to the USA dissolving due to interstate disputes, which I hold to and it appears that you do not) but the broader statements which you are making around that challenge.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
My point is that given the historical lack of evidence of

My point is that given the historical lack of evidence of post-independence Western Hemisphere nation states "dissolving" in the Nineteenth Century (including, most notably, the United States), the burden would seem to be on those suggesting such a thing to explain how...

Now I suppose we could debate the terms "Western Hemisphere," "nation states", "United States," and most every other word in the above paragraph (I'm sure one of our fellow posters would, all the while suggesting that he wasn't reading the posts), but I don't think that's something either of us would chose to do so.

Basically, my question is - okay, give me an example from history.

I have yet to see it, unless someone is going to offer Emperor Norton or something similar. Colombia-Neuva Granada-Granadine Confederation-Colombia is semantics.

Best,
 
My point is that given the historical lack of evidence of post-independence Western Hemisphere nation states "dissolving" in the Nineteenth Century (including, most notably, the United States), the burden would seem to be on those suggesting such a thing to explain how...

Now I suppose we could debate the terms "Western Hemisphere," "nation states", "United States," and most every other word in the above paragraph (I'm sure one of our fellow posters would, all the while suggesting that he wasn't reading the posts), but I don't think that's something either of us would chose to do so.

Basically, my question is - okay, give me an example from history.

I have yet to see it, unless someone is going to offer Emperor Norton or something similar. Colombia-Neuva Granada-Granadine Confederation-Colombia is semantics.

Best,

Well, There were The Various Native States that Arose During The 19th Century ...

Now, Most of those were within The Claimed Borders of The United States, However, The Red Stick Confederacy was Located out on its Fringes!

But, The Best Example, I Think, would be The Five Civilized Tribes of The Early Part of The Century ...

Special Attention should Go to The Cherokee Nation, as their Tribal Structure was Dissolved Twice ...

With The Civil War's, Brother Against Brother, being Particularly Apt, as Blood Ties were All they had Left!
 
Yes, but I don't believe anyone who consider them nation states in the Westphalian sense.

Best,

The Red Stick Confederacy, Came VERY Close ...

And Likely would Have, if The Prophet hadn't Engaged The United States, Pre-Maturely ...

As a Counter-Point, Look at The Navajo Nation, VERY Poor, But Also Nearly Unmolested on its Tribal Lands!
 

TFSmith121

Banned
I'd guess one could make the same claim for the Sami

The Red Stick Confederacy, Came VERY Close ...

And Likely would Have, if The Prophet hadn't Engaged The United States, Pre-Maturely ...

As a Counter-Point, Look at The Navajo Nation, VERY Poor, But Also Nearly Unmolested on its Tribal Lands!

I'd guess one could make the same claim for the Sami, but they've ever been considered a nation state either.

And we're a long way from the OP's post, aren't we?

Best,
 
I'd guess one could make the same claim for the Sami, but they've ever been considered a nation state either.

And we're a long way from the OP's post, aren't we?

Best,

Perhaps, But it does Answer your Question ...

If, at ANY Time, a Larger Power had Simply Decided The United States was Not to be ...

Well, America Delenda Est!
 
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