AHC: different early Christianity takes off, Christians and Pagans coexist through most of Europe?

This might be a tough one. For if a religion — either Christianity or Paganism — even moderately achieves position as a state religion, it sure doesn’t like the competition.

All the same, paint me a picture in which it happens. :)
 
Idea taken from the worst Western Roman emperor thread: No Diocletian.

Fewer/less severe persecutions could mean less paranoia/Never Again sentiment among Christians.

Best analogy might be Ireland - the transition from Druidism to Christianity was peaceful (contrary to what some Facebook memes claim).
 
No Constantine, no jump to state Religion status. Christianity reaches 30-40% by 400 and exists side by side with Roman Paganism. Perhaps there's and attempt to impose Christianity from the top but it goes badly, and causes the Christians not to want to (publicly) be in charge. At the same time paganism develops the tools to widen its mass appeal and the shared threat of Germanic invasion causes both sides to find common ground.
Christianity finds that sweet spot where it's too big to be suppressed but seldom the majority, kinda like India and China.
 
A later POD could do it. If Charlemagne fails somehow to subjugate the Saxons, could we end up with a situation where, over time, Pagan rulers convert, but Paganism still persists as a communal/folk religion in the general population?
 
This might be a tough one. For if a religion — either Christianity or Paganism — even moderately achieves position as a state religion, it sure doesn’t like the competition.

All the same, paint me a picture in which it happens. :)

Abrahamic Religions and unorganised Paganism can not coexis. Or most of the times can't...
 
A later POD could do it. If Charlemagne fails somehow to subjugate the Saxons, could we end up with a situation where, over time, Pagan rulers convert, but Paganism still persists as a communal/folk religion in the general population?

I say this with no disrespect for the validity of Christianity, since I am a devout Catholic...

Its not as though the folk aspects of Christianity have much to do with Biblical practices.
 

Kaze

Banned
It would be ASB. Co-existing is impossible! The problem is the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments - the first four are the real stickler to any form of co-existence, unless you got rid of them, it is a pipe-dream.

The only senerio I could see that could work in the favor would be that if Christianity was more like Buddhism -IRL - Buddhism can co-exist and melded well with Taoism, Shintoism, and other "Pagan" religions. Yes, there were some Buddhist excesses in violence and violence against Buddhism, basically the two religions did and do co-exist nicely.
 
I say this with no disrespect for the validity of Christianity, since I am a devout Catholic...

Its not as though the folk aspects of Christianity have much to do with Biblical practices.

No, but they did back in the Middle Ages. In any case, I'm sure I've read somewhere that Germanic Paganism survived even during the Heptarchy in England (and this was before/during the Danish invasion and Danelaw), so I can imagine a scenario where we have German kings paying lip service to the Church in order to gain preferential treatment in trade/relations, but in reality they still celebrate Yule as it was rather than Christmas as it became, and that sort of thing.
 
It would be ASB. Co-existing is impossible! The problem is the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments - the first four are the real stickler to any form of co-existence, unless you got rid of them, it is a pipe-dream.

The only senerio I could see that could work in the favor would be that if Christianity was more like Buddhism -IRL - Buddhism can co-exist and melded well with Taoism, Shintoism, and other "Pagan" religions. Yes, there were some Buddhist excesses in violence and violence against Buddhism, basically the two religions did and do co-exist nicely.

There's an odd sense of Christian determinism whenever this subject arises. I don't believe for a second that Christian rulers were any less opportunistic and flexible than any others.
 
Provided that the quote unquote "right" things happen along the way there's no reason it couldn't happen, essentially you need to make the new religion (whichever religion that is) less intolerant of competition, and vice-versa from the old religion (whichever it is).
 

Kaze

Banned
It is not the rulers that are the problem that would cause the fractures within the co-existence - Kings and reasonable authority figures are pure opportunists when it comes to religion - one day they might be pagan to sway the masses, the next they might be Christian -- IRL Constantine - his conversion was a political move not a religious one. He wanted to have enemy soldiers defect to his army instead of fighting in the service of his enemies.

Kings have been known to drop religion, take it up again, and use it when it serves their interests - Wars of the Reformation, "Paris is worth a mass," etc.

They are only one half of the problem - the other problem is the priesthood.

All a Christian priest has to do is cite the first four Commandments to his flock and say, "Our king (or reasonable authority figure) is not following the law set down by god, therefore we do not have pay taxes to him" and step back and watch the chaos come down onto the king (or reasonable authority figure).As soon as you say "do not have any other gods", you basically closed the gate to any form of tolerance and co-existence - anyone that suggests it is labeled a heretic and heretics have been known to burn quite nicely at the stake.

If you do not believe me try to build a mosque next door to a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South of the US - there will be no love from the pulpits; as for the reasonable authority figure (mayor, governor, senator, representative, president), he (or she) will play both sides down the middle and in the end, he (or she) will side with whatever has the highest poll numbers and contributed to his (or her) re-election.
 
Seconded Kaze.

Before Christianity become state religion, groups of monk rioting and attacking shrine and temple is regular thing. So Christianity did not need support of state to become violent, to change it you need 'fundamental' change of doctrines in early Christianity. It need to become henotheist despite Jewish already abandon henotheism for centuries.
 

Philip

Donor
It would be ASB. Co-existing is impossible! The problem is the Old Testament and the Ten Commandments - the first four are the real stickler to any form of co-existence, unless you got rid of them, it is a pipe-dream.

History does not agree with you. For example, look at the Sassanians. Two major branches of Christianity co-existed with Zoroastrians, Jews, and others for long periods. Sure, there were conflicts at times, but there are in every society.

All a Christian priest has to do is cite the first four Commandments to his flock and say, "Our king (or reasonable authority figure) is not following the law set down by god, therefore we do not have pay taxes to him" and step back and watch the chaos come down onto the king (or reasonable authority figure)

This can be said of any religion, in particular Judaism. However, I think it It's rather unfair to say that Jews have not coexisted with others through out the Christian era.

Focusing on Christianity, what you describe did not occur in the early church. They much more focused on Christ's command to 'Render unto Caesar....' Paul repeatedly taught that government (keep in mind that at this time that meant the pagan a Roman emperor who claimed divinity) was a instrument of God and to be obeyed. Indeed, he commanded that the emperor be prayed for. It was only when the emperor demanded that he be treated as a god that the early Christians disobeyed.

If you do not believe me try to build a mosque next door to a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South of the US -

This argument seems to be focused on a single stereotype and judging the entirely of the largest religion in the history of the world that has spanned six continents and two millennia by that. They doesn't sound like sound historiography (alternate or otherwise).
 

Kaze

Banned
I will agree with you a little.

Yes, in some regimes there was tolerance and co-existence. But how long did it last? Sassanians collapsed and tolerance went out the window.

I will agree with you that the early church did teach "render to ceasar." You forgot about Emperor Otto and various other kings, princes, and like of the later Church. When the pope excommunicated him and the whole of Germany, it gave the flock under Emperor Otto the right not to pay taxes to him. It was the non-paying of taxes and the rebellions that forced him to kiss the boots of the pope.

Generations later, look at the problems of Northern Ireland - it was the politicians playing both sides down the middle that ended the sectarian violence between Catholics and Protestants.

Point out in Mexico where the statues of the Aztec Gods stand and where are the Mayan Temples? Are they standing next to a Christian church where the faithful can worship at both - or are they museums and items decaying in the dirt?
 
I will agree with you a little.

Yes, in some regimes there was tolerance and co-existence. But how long did it last? Sassanians collapsed and tolerance went out the window.

I will agree with you that the early church did teach "render to ceasar." You forgot about Emperor Otto and various other kings, princes, and like of the later Church. When the pope excommunicated him and the whole of Germany, it gave the flock under Emperor Otto the right not to pay taxes to him. It was the non-paying of taxes and the rebellions that forced him to kiss the boots of the pope.

Generations later, look at the problems of Northern Ireland - it was the politicians playing both sides down the middle that ended the sectarian violence between Catholics and Protestants.

Point out in Mexico where the statues of the Aztec Gods stand and where are the Mayan Temples? Are they standing next to a Christian church where the faithful can worship at both - or are they museums and items decaying in the dirt?

Which was the result of politics and empirical conquest far more than it was about religion.
 
Abrahamic Religions and unorganised Paganism can not coexis. Or most of the times can't...

Hey Pasha effendi, you forgot to mention the Tanri. ;)

Tanrı uludur
Şüphesiz bilirim, bildiririm
Tanrı'dan başka yoktur tapacak.
Şüphesiz bilirim, bildiririm;
Tanrı'nın elçisidir Muhammed.
Haydin namaza, haydin felaha,
Namaz uykudan hayırlıdır.

Allahu aleem.

Of course I'm just teasing/joking gently in a friendly way, it's my opinion changing name of Allah to Tanri was not a good idea (even though I support the Ataturk reforms).

Guys who didn't understand, read.
 
Maybe an earlier fracturing of the Roman Empire? Like during the crisis of the third century? Then Christianity wouldn’t have the framework of the united Roman Empire to spread through anymore, if it ever even became a strong religion in the east. It would certainly have a hard time getting entrenched in the west.
 
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