AHC: Dien Bien Phu becomes more of a noble defeat for the French

What are the step the French could have taken to ensure their defense of Dien Bien Phu was much stronger and managed even to inflict casualties on the Viet Minh.

I supposed one of the biggest changes would be to have a bigger presence on the overlooking and surrounding hills to prevent the Viet Minh artillery from dragging their artillery over the hills. I doubt they'll be able to protect all of the hills but enough to keep up their defensives longer.

Having artillery with longer range that is capable of counter-battery fire to reduce the effects of the artillery fire from the Viet Minh.

Having a closer supply base so their air support wouldn't have to travel as far and back.
 
What are the step the French could have taken to ensure their defense of Dien Bien Phu was much stronger

Somehow get the Americans to commit substantial air forces. The French have neither the forces or the logistics to make the defences much stronger. Fall's Hell in a Small Place talks about a couple of what if's which might have made a difference including 'an additional group of two good battalions' to save Gabrielle and Anne-Marie but where are they coming from?

managed even to inflict casualties on the Viet Minh

Not sure what you're say. Viet Minh casualties are at least 25,000; that's more than total French strength.

I supposed one of the biggest changes would be to have a bigger presence on the overlooking and surrounding hills to prevent the Viet Minh artillery from dragging their artillery over the hills.

The French would need 10s of thousands of men to hold the hills. They don't have them.

Having artillery with longer range that is capable of counter-battery fire to reduce the effects of the artillery fire from the Viet Minh.

The Vietnamese tunnelled through the hills to emplace their artillery. Even if you can spot them, and you can't, you can't hurt them. And to quote Fall, 'There were many things that went wrong at Dien Bien Phu. The imbalance in firepower... was not the worst of them.' ( p. 451)

Having a closer supply base so their air support wouldn't have to travel as far and back.

Firstly, where are you building this airfield and how are you protecting it. French airfields in the delta weren't safe from infiltration, so basically you need another Dien Bien Phu size fortress to protect this forward air base. Even then it's not going to work. The French only had 75 combat and 100 supply aircraft and they did not understand how to use them. Windrow's The Last Valley quotes a French report on the 2 B-26 squadrons and how bad they were, it concludes that the two squadrons could have been ten times more effective than they were. (pp. 556-62). Again only if you get the Americans to commit substantial air forces (either tactical or supply) can you get a meaning change. But as Fall says, Dien Bien Phu was a military victory over the French, and a strategic victory over the US.
 
I am actually toying in a TL in which it is a French (meaningless) victory.

How? 6 words.

Axe-wielding Berserker Legionnaires Night Charge.

In the middle of a thuderstorm, as the Vietmihn are attacking.

This triggering a panic Vietmihn flight.

The French wisely leave before the Vietmihn come back for a rematch.
 
The goal of Dien Bien Phu was to draw the Vietminh away from Hanoi to reinforce its defense and allow evacuation.
This was a success.

The issue was twofold:
First, yeah, it was a tactical defeat, no way around it
Second, the French inexplicably started a peace conference at that time, maybe hoping for a Viet defeat. This backfired and Den Bien Phu became a political defeat.
 
I am actually toying in a TL in which it is a French (meaningless) victory.

How? 6 words.

Axe-wielding Berserker Legionnaires Night Charge.

In the middle of a thuderstorm, as the Vietmihn are attacking.

This triggering a panic Vietmihn flight.

The French wisely leave before the Vietmihn come back for a rematch.

I take it that TL will be placed in the ASB section?
 
There is no such thing as a noble defeat for the French at Dien Bien Phu as defeat there pretty much loses the war. Heroic failures only happen when they precede a significant victory, and the previous defeat is seen as necessary to the latter victory. Thus defeats like the Alamo are seen as a delaying action for the Battle of San Jacinto, or Thermopylae for the later victories of Salamis and Plataea. Or when a small number of forces inflict a significant losses on the enemy (like Bunker Hill), or at least hold out far longer than expected like the US/Filipino forces at Bataan.

I don't see any scenario where that can happen at Dien Bien Phu. Only if the French forces are somehow able to extricate themselves from the valley and make their way to safety, abandoning the field to the Viet Minh. In that way, the Communists would technically have a tactical victory (they retain control of the battlefield), but since the French forces escape it isn't really. Even though the French will still lose the war, preventing the annihilation of the forces there will at least keep French military honor intact. I have no idea how such a result is possible. The battle would need to be unrecognizable.
 
You bring up very interesting points. I forgot just how underequipped and lack of resources the French could have at times. Considering, the France couldn't pay for their own war and the financial drain it was on the war-ravaged French economy. It was an indeed a bad catch 22 for the French to get up caught into. Martin Windrow said there were reports of French paratroopers fighting with World War 1 vintage weapons. I would take that with a grain of salt but it shows how strapped they were at times.

I am actually toying in a TL in which it is a French (meaningless) victory.

How? 6 words.

Axe-wielding Berserker Legionnaires Night Charge.

In the middle of a thuderstorm, as the Vietmihn are attacking.

This triggering a panic Vietmihn flight.

The French wisely leave before the Vietmihn come back for a rematch.


Pierre Langlais earns the name ''Lion of Dien Bien Phu'' for the fierce defense of the valley. Since the French likened the battle of Verdun.:p
 
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French paratroopers fighting with WW1 is probably to much but vietnamese auxiliary forces fighting with WW1 weapons, it is quite possible.
 
Had the USA been involved and the B-29/B-50s carpet bombed the hills would have changed anything?

That's a good question. The French initially wanted VM supply routes bombed and that American intervention would be decisive in crippling them. Considering that the USAF failed to shut Viet Cong supplies routes in the mid-late Sixties, its difficult to see how they would have succeeded in in 1954. And I have already commented, the French command did not understand airpower.

Bombing the hills around Dien Bien Phu was also considered, but the Viet Minh artillery was too well entrenched for this to have much effect, and the Vietnamese were masters of camouflage.

This leaves carpet bombing of the valley, hopefully when Viet Minh are massing for an attack. This would have involved around 100 B-29s and 450 other strike aircraft flying off carriers and out of the Philippines. Post the battle various French officers opined that this was the sole chance to save the garrison. Bernard Fall agrees with them. A USAF General conducted three flights over the valley (two of which were in his personal B-17) and concluded that daylight raids were feasible. The Americans were appalled at the collateral damage the French (well at least French officers in Hanoi) were willing to accept, but these men were doomed in either case. Fall concludes that sustained American bombing would have saved Dien Bien Phu, but not French Indochina.

Even if the US found the political will to start bombing, there's a good chance that this would have resulted in a Chinese land invasion of Indochina.
 
Not arrange to have a battle take place there. Without such a decisive defeat, the French muddle through for a year or two more, before deciding to cut their losses and leave, but without the stigma of a major battlefield defeat.
 
From what I heard, some French soldiers are proud of their involvement at Dien Bien Phu, particularly the legionnaires who found the hopeless battle as a legionnaire tradition of fighting against hopeless odds. They would take that famous stand at Dien Bien Phu as a send off than some minor skirmish no one will remember.
 
I supposed one of the biggest changes would be to have a bigger presence on the overlooking and surrounding hills to prevent the Viet Minh artillery from dragging their artillery over the hills. I doubt they'll be able to protect all of the hills but enough to keep up their defensives longer.

I don't think the French had enough spare (or mobilise) force to do so. Please note that Dien Bien Phu was 1 in five major garrison centres of the French then. If they wanted to send more troops (say... 2000 men, or around a regiment), they would have to pull out some troops from else where, leading a "gap" which could be exploited by local resistance, either on Laos, Cambodia or Vietnam.

Having a closer supply base so their air support wouldn't have to travel as far and back.

And risk the chance for Viet Minh's commando force (then later developed to NLF/VC Commando force in the Vietnam War, they were able to do some serious attack with little loss) infiltrate and blow everything sky high?

To be honest, the only "noble" defeat for the French (as I see it) consisted of 2 major steps:
  • Get the US involved, or to be more specific, their nukes. Assume that the French actively asked for nukes in the new TL and actually use it, they would wipe out the Viet Minh along side the remains of the defenders (as a final "F*** you" to the Viet Minh and Vietnamese in general)
  • Propaganda. Beef up this defeat as a "glorious fight".
 
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