AHC: Delay the discovery of the Americas for as long as possible

How about a TL in which the European Christians win control over the Arab region, retaining full access to the Silk Road, and thereby negating the driving impetus behind naval trade between Europe and the Orient? Without any real reasons to set sail across the Atlantic, and without knowledge of the Americas' existence (and with knowledge of the circumference of the earth, and the distance of the long and arduous voyage across the world ocean), there's a decent chance that the 'discovery' of the Americas could be delayed until the 17th or even the 18th century.
Unless it is one country spanning all of Europe you still have the pressure from the countries in the Westent part looking for a way to bypass the middle man.
 

Zachariah

Banned
Unless it is one country spanning all of Europe you still have the pressure from the countries in the Westent part looking for a way to bypass the middle man.
Which they won't be in any real position to do by sailing westwards until they have ships with the endurance to cross the presumed distance without knowledge of the Americas, the spans of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans combined. Columbus was an idiot who sailed based upon spurious calculations of the world's circumference which were outmoded even at that time- delay that further, and the reaching of a consensus as to the earth's true circumference would serve to deter anyone else from even attempting to make such a trip across the ocean from Western Europe to Asia, across an entire hemisphere, until they were confident that it wouldn't be a certain suicide mission- until their ships were capable of the endurance and capacity needed to support the crew over such a long distance, going with the assumption that the still unknown Americas aren't there.
 
How about a TL in which the European Christians win control over the Arab region, retaining full access to the Silk Road, and thereby negating the driving impetus behind naval trade between Europe and the Orient? Without any real reasons to set sail across the Atlantic, and without knowledge of the Americas' existence (and with knowledge of the circumference of the earth, and the distance of the long and arduous voyage across the world ocean), there's a decent chance that the 'discovery' of the Americas could be delayed until the 17th or even the 18th century.

I don't think there is any chance it will prolong it by that much. I have a hard time picturing a scenario in which the Christians take the middle east and hold it that doesn't still create pressures for the western kingdoms to look for alternate trade routes. If, for example, the Crusades are successful and permanent, then the Italian cities (mainly Venice) now have a stranglehold on trade between the East and West, which is, more or less, how it was, historically. If, on the other hand, the Byzantines prosper enough that they're the ones holding the area, then Constantinople joins Venice in controlling the trade (this scenario implicitly assumes no 4th crusade, so relations are a smidge better).
 
Which they won't be in any real position to do by sailing westwards until they have ships with the endurance to cross the presumed distance without knowledge of the Americas, the spans of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans combined. Columbus was an idiot who sailed based upon spurious calculations of the world's circumference which were outmoded even at that time- delay that further, and the reaching of a consensus as to the earth's true circumference would serve to deter anyone else from even attempting to make such a trip across the ocean from Western Europe to Asia, across an entire hemisphere, until they were confident that it wouldn't be a certain suicide mission- until their ships were capable of the endurance and capacity needed to support the crew over such a long distance, going with the assumption that the still unknown Americas aren't there.
This post gets at the idea that I had for the OP: delay the discovery/introduction of some key shipping technology to make it physically difficult or impossible to cross the Atlantic. I'm not privy to the evolution of shipbuilding, but surely there is a bottleneck somewhere in time to hinder the advance of technology.
 

Zachariah

Banned
This post gets at the idea that I had for the OP: delay the discovery/introduction of some key shipping technology to make it physically difficult or impossible to cross the Atlantic. I'm not privy to the evolution of shipbuilding, but surely there is a bottleneck somewhere in time to hinder the advance of technology.
Making it physically difficult or impossible to cross the Atlantic's hard. Making it physically difficult or impossible to cross the presumed Tethys (i.ro. 30,000 km, based upon the presumption that the Americas were ocean instead and the Atlantic and Pacific were one and the same), on the other hand, would be considerably easier and more plausible.
 
How could the discovery of the Americas be delayed for as long as possible?

One way to delay the "official" discovery would be for Columbus to be jailed when he stopped in Lisbon on his way back to sell the info to the King of Portugal before returning to Castile. Several advisers of King John II insisted for him to just kill the remaining members of the crew and to burn the ships to avoid the news to reach Valladolid, but at best you just delay it for 10 years, maybe less.

Didn't the King of Portugal, Dinis I, plant a large forest for shipbuilding? Not to mention, you can't physically run out of wood for ships in Europe, since you'd just drive up the price of wood and make the Scandinavian countries stronger (and they definitely aren't going to be running out of wood). I'd argue this could strengthen the need for exploration--can you use rainforest wood in West Africa for ships? And more trade with West Africa by sea equals Brazil will be discovered, and eventually the rest of the New World.

And that includes the Grand Banks area, where the lack of cod from there because of expensive ships will drive up the price of cod. And it's evident that the land by the Grand Banks contains an insane amount of trees which can be used for shipbuilding.

The Pinhal de Leiria was first planted by Denis father, King Afonso III, while some even argue that it was actually his brother King Sancho II that started it, to stop the advance of the dunes and to protect the fields of Leiria from the wind. King Denis was the one that expanded it to the current size and, I think, it was him that installed the order that for every tree cut one would be planted.

It was in the XVth century that the Pinhal was used as a source of pine wood for the ships, but from what I found about it was still the common to import wood from the Baltic and Scandinavia for shipbuilding.
 
Regardless of if the Welsh, Irish, and/or Basque all ever actually stepped foot on the Americas, they most definitely fished in the Grand Banks, there is no dispute about that. That's fact. They almost certainly knew land was nearby, MAY have even occasionally landed. But they didnt care. The technology to reach the Americas existed far too long ago for the idea that "we'll just delay the technology". The Scandinavians were making it there over 500 years before Columbus, and before even Vinland, because Greenland counts as the Americas, hate to tell you about this thing called geography. Eventually some Welsh or Irish or Breton or Basque spills the beans to a competitor, who encourages England, France, or whatever is in Spain "hey, give ME the monopoly over this great fishing area that also has all these trees on this unofficial land! We'll get rich off selling fish during lent!" it's not gold, G-d, and spices, but it's a beginning and probably happens in early 1500s. Any POD that specifically slows down Columbus et al may have unintended consequences of spurring other nations to go even earlier than Columbus (the post above about less trees in the the rest of Europe drives up the price of fish and trees and makes exploration to the west or south to Africa even more appealing). I see OTL as the most delayed possible to be honest. I don't think much more than what already happened in OTL could do any worse.
 
Have one of Colombus's two returning ships wreck and the other get sail damage in the hurricane such that they do get back to port but everyone on board is dead (of starvation/dehydration) or worse a plague breaks out and the records on board indicate they landed on some island or something *way* out. Rumors fly and even the Portuguese stay closer to the African coast to avoid La Tierra/Isla de Muerte
 
Of course the earlier the PoD the later it would happen. (One could exaggerate and suppose the meteor does not fall and kill the dinosaurs, but that would be too much of a stretch.)
Realistically, if the Muslims had defeated Charles Martell the entire Middle Ages would be different, so although it's hard to say for how long this could be delayed (or anticipated, since everything would be different), it would probably happen later, especially if the question refers to European colonization.
 
Of course the earlier the PoD the later it would happen. (One could exaggerate and suppose the meteor does not fall and kill the dinosaurs, but that would be too much of a stretch.)
Realistically, if the Muslims had defeated Charles Martell the entire Middle Ages would be different, so although it's hard to say for how long this could be delayed (or anticipated, since everything would be different), it would probably happen later, especially if the question refers to European colonization.
Even with that I think it would be the status of the Iberian peninsula as once you get stable countries there that are both secure and have the funds there will be pressure to locate alternative trade routes. Now granted for Columbus journey you need someone to miscalculate the size of the Earth. On the other hand I have read in some other threads here that the Portuguese may have found Brazil or been close to it so that is a possibility as well.
 
How much did exploration cost in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries? It seems like outfitting a couple of ships and sending them over the horizon shouldn't consume too many resources, but people always bring up funding as a limiting factor on exploration voyages.
 
An active hurricane cycle could do it. A Cat 4 wrecks the 1492 expedition. A few years later, another attempt is made and meets the same fate. Then a third.

The European powers don't have enough knowledge to understand how hurricanes work, or the ability to predict and avoid them, so they just assume crossing the ocean isn't feasible.
 
Remove Henry the Navigator. A lot of the nautical knowledge that enabled the Age of Discovery was developed or brought together with his direction and funding.
 
An active hurricane cycle could do it. A Cat 4 wrecks the 1492 expedition. A few years later, another attempt is made and meets the same fate. Then a third.

The European powers don't have enough knowledge to understand how hurricanes work, or the ability to predict and avoid them, so they just assume crossing the ocean isn't feasible.

I don't think anyone is sending out after a third expedition doesn't come back.
 
I don't think anyone is sending out after a third expedition doesn't come back.

Especially in a time where every sailor 'knew' there were horrendous sea monsters waiting to devour them, and most of them suspected that otherwise they would fall into an abyss at the edge of the world.
 
By the time of Columbus there were already numerous minor discoveries of the Americas. Europeans knew something was there,they had the tech and were more than skilled enough to make the voyages. Frankly,the ''Great Discovery" should have taken place centuries before Columbus.
 
By the time of Columbus there were already numerous minor discoveries of the Americas. Europeans knew something was there,they had the tech and were more than skilled enough to make the voyages. Frankly,the ''Great Discovery" should have taken place centuries before Columbus.

Why? The circumference of the world was guestimated more or less correctly by Columbus's time (pole to pole distance within 0.1% of actual distance). Without the Americas, any ship cannot carry enough water to make it to Asia. Columbus got the distance wrong. Delay Columbus and company 30 or so years and a conseus on the correct distance will be reached. The conclusion will be nothing is out there but a few islands, and there aren't enough of them to "island hop" to... Japan?
 
Why? The circumference of the world was guestimated more or less correctly by Columbus's time (pole to pole distance within 0.1% of actual distance). Without the Americas, any ship cannot carry enough water to make it to Asia. Columbus got the distance wrong. Delay Columbus and company 30 or so years and a conseus on the correct distance will be reached. The conclusion will be nothing is out there but a few islands, and there aren't enough of them to "island hop" to... Japan?

Yeah, but what about Antillia? Certainly someone might be interested to see if Antillia is real. After all, it might be good land for growing sugar, might have someone to trade with, the fishing might be good, etc.

If you set off from the Azores with this intention, odds are pretty good you'd find North America or at least Bermuda. Which actually might be a good reason not to further explore if people think Antillia is Bermuda, but before long people will settle on Bermuda and at that point it's probably inevitable a fisherman will find the mainland or the Caribbean.
 
If you set off from the Azores with this intention, odds are pretty good you'd find North America or at least Bermuda. Which actually might be a good reason not to further explore if people think Antillia is Bermuda, but before long people will settle on Bermuda and at that point it's probably inevitable a fisherman will find the mainland or the Caribbean.

I can see them going to Bermuda like that (30-100 ish years post OTL Columbus maybe since that place suggests "maybe grow sugar with this climate, someone still needs to check the soil" not "found our way to China" or "GOLD"), but based on what the Europeans know, there is no reason to go in the direction of the mainland from "Antillia." Going by the contemporary maps, the only way someone goes towards the mainland is if they are a comically bad navigator.
 
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