AHC: De-Nazification Fails

The process in which the allies in Western-Occupied Germany successfully (and quite awesomely) purged the potential for Nazi Revanchism was known as De-Nazification.

So, as the challenge states, what PoD(s) can you come up with for this process to fail in Western Germany post April, 1945.

Bonus points if you can have it fail in Soviet-Occupied Germany as well

Mega Bonus points if you postulate long term geopolitical effects.
 

nastle

Banned
The process in which the allies in Western-Occupied Germany successfully (and quite awesomely) purged the potential for Nazi Revanchism was known as De-Nazification.

So, as the challenge states, what PoD(s) can you come up with for this process to fail in Western Germany post April, 1945.

Bonus points if you can have it fail in Soviet-Occupied Germany as well

Mega Bonus points if you postulate long term geopolitical effects.

what choice did the germans have ?
If "de-nazification" whatever the hell it means fail then these germans will be enslaved by the allies for decades to come.

The whole "de-nazification" was a deal for the former Nazi to transfer their expertise to a different master and live comfortably and not pay for their crimes.But that unfortunately also meant untold suffering for common german civilians and common german soldiers taken POW , while many the important Nazis lived relatively comfortably in the democratic west Germany.
 
True.

But, under the auspicious of an Operation Unthinkable? Maybe significant De-Nazification policy just falls through the cracks as all eyes turn towards the Soviets.

Not sure how plausible this is though.
 

nastle

Banned
True.

But, under the auspicious of an Operation Unthinkable? Maybe significant De-Nazification policy just falls through the cracks as all eyes turn towards the Soviets.

Not sure how plausible this is though.
Maybe a less virulent Nazi ideology persist in the Germany under the control of the western allies ?
That's what the soviets were trying to say all along ! :p
The "anti-fascist barrier" protected the East from this ....

A more assertive Germany on a global scale and if lets say the allies conclude a separate armistice with germans BEFORE they attacked the Siegfried line then we can potentially see a second "miracle at the vistula" with soviets stopped much earlier and will likely also come to terms with the new realities esp when lend lease drys up.A independent strongly right wing France may be hostile to Germany but if anything they would hate their leftwingers more and cooperate with germans to keep them in check.
Poland does not exist, hungry under german control. Bulgaria Rumania likely under soviet influence.
 
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Not a POD, but some thoughts:

I think in addition to generally not having a choice (given that they were occupied), I think any POD would require a major shift in public perception of Nazism and the war within the German populace. With the end of the conflict came the confirmation that the rumors about the death camps and atrocities were true, and the realization that the country had been feed a narrative that resulted in disaster. The average citizen was exhausted and demoralized, and likely suffering from depression/shock. Millions are dead or homeless and almost a whole generation of men has been lost. 50% of German real-estate was rubble. Any POD would have to factor this in and somehow change the public perception or I don’t see the scenario in the OP coming to fruition.

Perhaps a POD that lessens the immediate impact of de-nazification and also drags it out longer – time enough for a denier ethos to foster and for memories to fade.
 
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To be honest I would say it has failed. If you look there pretty much is a radical Lost Cause movement for Nazism, as I have seen firsthand with one of my friends becoming more radical and disgusting than a brownshirt.
 
To be honest I would say it has failed. If you look there pretty much is a radical Lost Cause movement for Nazism, as I have seen firsthand with one of my friends becoming more radical and disgusting than a brownshirt.

True. But, there are radicals everywhere, in every country.

I interpreted the OP as de-nazification in the sense of removing fromer nazis from positions of power in politcal/government positions, and not erasing the ideology entirely.
 
To be honest I would say it has failed. If you look there pretty much is a radical Lost Cause movement for Nazism, as I have seen firsthand with one of my friends becoming more radical and disgusting than a brownshirt.

You aren't ever going to get rid of every idiot or nut supporting a well known whacked out idea without ASB mind control. There is no significant support for Nazism in Germany or anywhere else.
 
True. But, there are radicals everywhere, in every country.

I interpreted the OP as de-nazification in the sense of removing fromer nazis from positions of power in politcal/government positions, and not erasing the ideology entirely.

Honestly, it could be either or.

De-Nazification didn't just mean imprisoning or purging ex-party members from the civil service.

It also meant de-nazifying schools, churches, courts, businesses, etc.

What Post April '45 PoD could make this process fail in Western Germany?
 
Honestly, it could be either or.

De-Nazification didn't just mean imprisoning or purging ex-party members from the civil service.

It also meant de-nazifying schools, churches, courts, businesses, etc.

What Post April '45 PoD could make this process fail in Western Germany?

Okay. I'll give it a shot. I'm trying to define a POD, but in order to define it, I had to write quite a bit to outline why it might work... Sorry for the length. It's practically a TL in-itself!

So, post April '45 means a.) Hitler is dead, b.) That US and Soviet forces have linked up t the Elbe, and c.) Berlin is going to fall no-matter what.

I thought hard about this, and this is about the only thing I could come up with. It's a horrible scenario (who wants to see Nazism continue?!?!). Suggestions are obviously welcome. Especially sketchy are available aircraft and bases to fly from for phase 2 (see below). Not sure how plausible this is...

POD:

In the early hours of May 1st 1945: Upon hearing of the death of Hitler, Nazi fanatics with access to stocks of chemical weapons (there had been a lot of talk of using them against the Soviets in the last month so it is conceivable that they could be accessed) hastily patch together a black-flag operation to “harden the resolve of the German people”, inspire anger towards the Soviets and possibly make matters worse for the Soviets post-hostilities. The Plan involves the use of a handful of remaining aircraft and limited stocks of 250kg Tabun gas bombs and 105 mm Sarin gas shells used in two phases. Phase 1 is conducted by a team that has no knowledge of team two's existence (other than a very small group of fanatical organizers). Knowledge of phase 2 is limited to a small team of dedicated fanatics.

- The first phase is a single artillery attack against Soviet troop concentrations to the east of Berlin using Sarin Gas shells fired from 105mm artillery.

- The second phase would only be launched following a successful phase 1 AND provided it generates a strong and threatening response from Stalin and the Soviet press. It would be conducted no sooner than 4 days of the successful execution of phase 1. The second phase is a dawn attack on a small (so lightly-occupied) civilian center well behind Soviet lines (in what would eventually become the GDR), but this time, using the Tabun gas bombs dropped from a single aircraft piloted by a fanatical volunteer (not sure on available aircraft at this time, or what aircraft could carry the payload).

The goal of the entire operation is to make it appear to the German people and the western press that the second attack was a Soviet retaliation for the first attack using captured stocks of Nazi chemical weapons. The reason for the delay between phases it to make it look like the Soviets needed time to plan the retaliation.

Somehow, the plotters manage to successfully launch phase 1 without any sane leaders catching wind of the plan. The attack is launched on May 2rd. and results in 1000's of Soviet dead including martial Zuchov and his staff. Stalin is enraged, and after several drinks performs a short but fiery speech including references to barbarity of the German people. In west, the attack is condemned as further evidence of the barbarity of the Nazi regime. In what remains of Germany, sane leaders are concerned about the ramifications of the use of Chemical weapons and the effects on the impending occupation.

May 3rd. Given the shifting events on the ground and out of concern that one more rapid Allied advance would result in their inability to launch phase 2, the chief plotters decide to proceed earlier than planned. Using one of the few available planes (obviously something that can make the range and carry a large enough payload) the mission takes off in the early-hours of May 4th. Flying low and fast, the aircraft makes to its target: a small town in the occupied area of eastern Germany. Seeing no evidence of a Soviet occupation force, the pilot reluctantly releases his bombs and makes heads home. Half way home, he is engaged by Soviet aircraft and is shot down.

The attack results in the deaths of nearly 1000 German civilians sleeping in their beds. Large numbers of livestock lay dead in the fields close to the town. News filters into Moscow around mid-morning. Stalin (although already partially drunk and fuming from the day before) quickly realizes how this could be interpreted in the west and decides to cover it up. Still, word of the “Soviet revenge attack of May 4th” spreads quickly among the east-German populace in neighboring towns. Mid afternoon on May 4th, a brave amateur photographer sneaks close to the village (before an effective cordon can be setup) and snaps a few pictures of Soviet Troops in chem-gear piling and burning civilian bodies. In one image, he captures the hardly noticeable image of a dead woman with her cold-dead child wrapped in her arms. He sneaks away and hides the film.

Jump forward a 6 months: Soviet occupation of eastern-Germany is much harsher than OTL largely out heightened anger over the May 1st attack that killed Zuchov and 1000s of brave heroes of the Soviet Union. News of these Soviet “atrocities” is more prevalent than OTL simply due their frequency. In the west, the public is disturbed by the stories of what has gone on in the following months. Public opinion the western occupation zones shifts towards subdued anger and disgust at the Soviet actions and frustration at the West's lack of ability to do anything about it.

Three months later, the pictures taken on May 4th 1945 make it to the west and burst onto the scene. The Western press immediately paints the May 4th attack as Soviet payback taken out on innocent civilians using captured chemical weapons in the closing days of the war. Headlines read “REVEALED: SECRET SOVIET CHEMICAL WEAPONS ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS IN THE CLOSING DAYS OF WAR – EXPERTS SPECULATE THAT THIS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN AN ISOLATED INCIDENT”. “SOVIET REPRISALS AGAINST GERMANS IN THE OCCUPIED ZONES INCLUDED THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS”. Many papers feature images of the dead mother holding her child.

Outside Germany the public is repelled by the images and opinion shifts heavily against the Soviet Union. While there is an obvious tempering of the response given the all-too familiar and horrifying images of Nazi death-camps, Westerners remain appalled that the Soviets could do such a thing. There are calls for a UN investigation.

In a defiant and aloof tone, Stalin responds by denying the attack and claiming it was a Nazi operation. This further pushes Western public opinion against the Soviets. Distrust builds.

Within Germany, there is a growing feeling of anger and disgust. The German public consciousness shifts focus away from shame of the holocaust and towards the Soviet “problem”. The holocaust is talked about less and replaced with simmering anger and frustration at Germany's powerlessness. Through the May 4th photos, a new generation of children witness “what the Communists are capable of” at an early age. Seeds are sewn.
 
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The process in which the allies in Western-Occupied Germany successfully (and quite awesomely) purged the potential for Nazi Revanchism was known as De-Nazification.

So, as the challenge states, what PoD(s) can you come up with for this process to fail in Western Germany post April, 1945.

Bonus points if you can have it fail in Soviet-Occupied Germany as well

Mega Bonus points if you postulate long term geopolitical effects.


In the event of a soviet collapse, an absence of threat from the east and a minimization of Germany's strategic importance, the Wallies might give up on de-Nazification and go home ala Reconstruction in the American south.
 
Whether it is the Soviets or the Western Allies whomever ends up in control of Germany will make sure the country is thoroughly de-Nazified. The only question is how harsh will the methods the victors have to employ be before Naziism in Germany is thoroughly crushed.
 
Valkyrie Succeeds

Valkyrie succeeds. Himmler is arrested and a puppet is made the leader of the SS so as not to rock the boat and keep the German ship of state sailing. They ask the Wallies to make a separate peace so they can fight the USSR. West says no dice.

As the situation collapses by late 1944, they realize there won't be a Germany left unless they simply capitulate to the west.

And so, as some forum members postulate here, the Germans take the lull in late 1944 in the west to transfer everything they have East. The west steam rolls in.

The German people are sold on a quick end to the war means the occupation won't be brutal. The USSR is given their OTL occupation zones. West Germany is sacked and deindustrialized as per OTL. Berlin Airlift and issues with Turkey are butterflied away and the Miracle on the Rhine is delayed a few more years. Only the Korean war gets the West to think seriously about checking the now aggressive Soviet Union.

Let's say, due to butterflies, the West loses South Korea entirely (North pushes them into the sea before western help arrives.) France drops out of Nato.

So, West Germany is allowed to re-industrialize and given political autonomy. Anti-Nazis are discredited because of their failure to make the occupation less harmful as they are essentially occupied by the West and literally raped in the French and Soviet zones of occupation.

The holocaust, though viewed as bad, does not discredit Nazism quite as badly. West Germany does not pass laws illegalizing Nazi salutes and such. The Heer is allowed to reform, and they retain medals and uniforms similar to those in World War 2. The Neo-Nazis (as they are called) focus on limiting immigration and indoctrinating nationalism in schools.

Much like the Japanese, the average German hates that there are still US military bases on their soil. Outside US bases, German soldiers wearing Neo-Nazi uniforms stand guard so as not to offend the sensibilities of the populace.


Oh, BTW, German cars still suck ATL.
 
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