AHC: Danish Emperor

With a POD in 1200, have a Danish king become the Holy Roman Emperor and have the Danish Emperors hold this power for a considerable period of time. There is no need for the Kalmar union to remain, though it would be appreciated.

What would be the effects of this situation? Series of questions:

-How might this affect the Reformation? Would it still occur or be lessened in extent? I van imagine some factors of otl could occur, such as the increased Gallicanism and Anglicanism perspectives on Papal power, however, with the empire so close to many centres of reform, could the otl reformation in northern Germany be null?

-With the emperor in the far north, how might this apply to Ottoman expansion within Europe? Coudl there be some sort of amicable relation between Denmark and the Empire with that of the Ottomans? Perhaps both having anti Russian and Polish politik?

-How would Denmark and other Scandinavian lands be affected linguistically by the relation with Germany?

-Without Imperial power, what is to befall Austria and surrounding lands affected by it, especially the Hungarians and Venetians?
 
It' possible that if elected early enough the Danish emperor could use resources from the empire to secure sweden and the Baltic.
I don't see a good relationship with the ottomans being possible the emperor is the HOLY Roman emperor and further more the dan8sh kings can kiss being re-elected goodbye if they are letting the Turks run rough shod right next door
 
It' possible that if elected early enough the Danish emperor could use resources from the empire to secure sweden and the Baltic.
I don't see a good relationship with the ottomans being possible the emperor is the HOLY Roman emperor and further more the dan8sh kings can kiss being re-elected goodbye if they are letting the Turks run rough shod right next door

Yes just as the Austrian emperors used their position to create their own hinterland outside the empire, the Danish emperor would likely do the same in Baltic.

I think we need to go with the Valdemaran Kings being more successful, avoid their loss to the German rebels, and make them fully integrate Mecklenburg, Pommerania and Holstein into their domains. A strong later emperor force them to recognize his overlordship, and from there a few lucky marriages and good alliance end up getting a Danish King elected. With a stable Denmark in the pre-Kalmar period, will mean no Hanseatic and the Danish King monopolise the important herring trade (before the cod replaced the herring, herring was pretty much the most important fish in Europe) specific and the Baltic trade in general. The Swedes and Norwegian would likely soon fall to such a Danish state, and Poland and Lithuania would become the next targets of the expansions of the non-German hinterland. The Danish usual had a good relationship with the Pope, I expect it will stay somewhat good, as the Danish emperors won't care much about Italy, in fact I think the position as German King will seen as far more important for the Danish kings than the position as emperor. The Danish emperors will likely come into conflict with the Hungarian and French kings in that order, as they will be seen as the main threats.
 
Yes just as the Austrian emperors used their position to create their own hinterland outside the empire, the Danish emperor would likely do the same in Baltic.

I think we need to go with the Valdemaran Kings being more successful, avoid their loss to the German rebels, and make them fully integrate Mecklenburg, Pommerania and Holstein into their domains. A strong later emperor force them to recognize his overlordship, and from there a few lucky marriages and good alliance end up getting a Danish King elected. With a stable Denmark in the pre-Kalmar period, will mean no Hanseatic and the Danish King monopolise the important herring trade (before the cod replaced the herring, herring was pretty much the most important fish in Europe) specific and the Baltic trade in general. The Swedes and Norwegian would likely soon fall to such a Danish state, and Poland and Lithuania would become the next targets of the expansions of the non-German hinterland. The Danish usual had a good relationship with the Pope, I expect it will stay somewhat good, as the Danish emperors won't care much about Italy, in fact I think the position as German King will seen as far more important for the Danish kings than the position as emperor. The Danish emperors will likely come into conflict with the Hungarian and French kings in that order, as they will be seen as the main threats.
The Danish kings will likely be quite supportive of German movement eastward as German settlers would be seen as necessary to solidify control of the regions.
I also very much agree that they arnt going to care much about Italy too much trouble too far away, they may well basically just let the pope run the place.
 
Does it have to be exactly 1200?

Okay, so you have the children of Philip and Juana, right? Their sons are Charles and Ferdinand, whose acquaintance many of us will have made. Let's say by some fluke both of them die before they really get going, definitely before they begin begetting heirs. Next in line after the boys is Eleanore the oldest sister. If she's done away with too before she begets children with the king of Portugal, that would leave Isabella, who was married to...King Christian II of Denmark. Now he was subject to some exigencies of fortune, yes. But I do believe there is some adage written somewhere that whole conquered continents, near-infinite amounts of gold and vast armies led by capable Spanish generals in one's service do tend to make life easier, even for the eccentric. Easy enough for the Queen of Spain's husband, the King of Denmark, to then win the imperial election in 1519, perhaps. Especially considering the man who won that election in OTL is dead and they have his stuff.

As with all matters Habsburg, this runs into all matter of bizarre complications. Juana is still alive, Charles had to work to put down a serious revolt very early in his reign, and Christian and Isabella are, if not out-and-out Lutherans, definitely reform-curious. This would create all manner of havoc for them in Iberia, but actually strengthens them in northern Europe. Ferdinand was actually benefited in his effort to become King of Bohemia and Hungary by the fact that Charles was at that moment on such bad terms with the pope and was paying lip service to a lot of notions popular with the reform movement. Christian in those circumstances could slide neatly in, once again benefiting from the fact that the guy who won is dead and they have his stuff.

So it is possible Christian and Isabella could finish out with Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Holy Roman Empire, Bohemia and Hungary. Austria is at a much higher level of difficulty, because of problems with descent through the female line there, but at some point I think the advantages the other realms accumulate to themselves becomes prohibitive. It's not salic law, it's how many pikemen you can contribute to the succession war. Spain is of course much more difficult still, because of the religion question, because of Juana, and because of the restless nobles as yet untamed by Charles V. And beyond that they would still have to fight over the more endangered parts of the Empire of Charles V, like Naples.

The worst part of all this is that being Charles V was of course very hard, and increasing the number of rebellious ruled peoples in the mix on balance will make it harder. But the prompt is Denmark + HRE, and on balance here, that's the easy part. Denmark has close relations with many of the HRE states. Hell, Christian is Frederick the Wise's nephew. And the religious question so corrosive for the Habsburgs here helps make it stick.

So Emperor Christian, and if the kid lives, Emperor John. Not likely, no. But neither is the cursed womb of Queen Anne, or the youngest daughter of the thirteen children of the Winter Queen transmitting a claim to the British throne.
 
I basically did this in my TL, Their Cross to Bear, with a PoD at the Battle of Pavia. Christian II and his children are probably the best bet for all of this.
 
@Zulfurium probably created the most elaborate and plausible scenario.

I was considering something similar (but dismissed it) for my old Hussite timeline A Different Chalice, only a century earlier than @Zulfurium's scenario:
Have the Hussite Wars go a lot worse for Sigismund and his son-in-law Albert of Habsburg (e.g. Sigismund is so humiliated in Bohemia that the Electors choose a new German ROman King; Albert being already killed in the Hussite Wars etc.). Poland-Lithuania is enticed to side a little more with the Hussites in this scenario, probably carving up Silesia and/or Lusatia between them.

The Electors choose Eric of Pommerania, who is the duke of a member principality of the HRE anyway (beside being King of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden), as the new German Roman King, and he vows to throw in all the resources he can muster from the North against the Polish-Lithuanian-Hussite menace. (The Pope would like that and crown him.) Mission accomplished. If you can still make him sire an heir, this super-Kalmar Union could even go on for a while. You would also have butterflied the Danish-Hanseatic war of 1426-35 and monopolised Baltic trade without excluding Hanseatic merchants. They'd operate in even safer environment.

-How might this affect the Reformation? Would it still occur or be lessened in extent?
With this PoD, nothing is certain about the Reformation anymore.

With the emperor in the far north, how might this apply to Ottoman expansion within Europe? Coudl there be some sort of amicable relation between Denmark and the Empire with that of the Ottomans? Perhaps both having anti Russian and Polish politik
Anti-Polish does not necessarily also mean anti-Russian (or more specifically anti-Muscovite). Denmark, when in union with Sweden, had trouble with Novgorod; who knows how the relationship with an alt-Muscovy evolves... Hungary is in a much worse position with regards to imperial attitudes towards it as compared to when the HREmperor was a Habsburger. The Gryffin Emperors will certainly not be openly pro-Ottoman, but they may not care all that much about the Balkans.

How would Denmark and other Scandinavian lands be affected linguistically by the relation with Germany?
Not much. German influence may be slightly greater, but I don't see significant changes there.
German, on the other hand, might change a lot. With an imperial court somewhere in the North, as opposed to Prague or later Vienna, and the Hansa under joint imperial and Kalmar protection, I can well imagine Low German varieties taking on formative roles in the standardization of German. (That would increase similarities of Standard German with both Dutch and English, and make Standard German probably no longer mutually understandable with Swiss German, if the Alte Eidgenossenschaft evolves into a full-blown state like IOTL.)

Without Imperial power, what is to befall Austria and surrounding lands affected by it, especially the Hungarians and Venetians?
Hungary is either gobbled up by the Ottomans or reduced to a vassal. Venice? IDK. Austria, on the other hand, may not even be that interesting for the Ottomans, and they might as well simply leave it alone, it's at the farthest end of their logistics chain anyway. IOTL, Vienna became "the apple" because it was the seat of the Holy Roman Emperor. If it's just the seat of the duchy of Austria, it might be considered irrelevant by the Ottomans. What the Habsburgs do, I don't know. Quarrel with the Swiss a little? Meddle in Bavaria and Northern Italy? Struggle over Bohemia and Moravia? They're no longer extremely likely to acquire so much more power by marriage as IOTL just because they're no longer such good matches.
 
I need to read Zulfurium's timeline. It sounds very interesting. I had only a cursory knowledge of Christian II before this thread, my primary interest in him being his usurpation and the situation of his heirs for my own timeline's purposes. But it does seem like he would be a fascinating person to give that much power to.

Let's say though he takes power and expresses enthusiasm for the reform agenda before the matter develops into a split in the church. I don't know to what extent you lose the religious conflict, and to what extent you trade away the one we know for a new one. Let's say Christian II does the opposite of Charles, and starts forcing the hand of the princes to embrace reformed religion. Then the institutional conservative interests favoring a diffusion of power that tried to hedge Charles begin working in the other direction. You might even just trade Saxony for Bavaria as the locus of opposition!

At the same time, we have to remember the Reformation is a sidebar conflict. The main show for the 1520's and 1530's is the death struggle with France/Francis. Is Christian II up for that, as a military leader? If the dynamic is not competition to win the support of the pope of the moment, because Christian has entered the lists on the side of the reformists, does that mean France becomes the automatic natural ally of the papacy? That, plus the likely trouble in Spain, swings the Italian wars hard against the HRE.

Fascinatingly enough, I could imagine Europe late in Christian II/Isabella's reign looking much like the old West Roman Empire, or one of the linguistic maps showing the boundaries of the romance languages.
 
I need to read Zulfurium's timeline. It sounds very interesting. I had only a cursory knowledge of Christian II before this thread, my primary interest in him being his usurpation and the situation of his heirs for my own timeline's purposes. But it does seem like he would be a fascinating person to give that much power to.

Let's say though he takes power and expresses enthusiasm for the reform agenda before the matter develops into a split in the church. I don't know to what extent you lose the religious conflict, and to what extent you trade away the one we know for a new one. Let's say Christian II does the opposite of Charles, and starts forcing the hand of the princes to embrace reformed religion. Then the institutional conservative interests favoring a diffusion of power that tried to hedge Charles begin working in the other direction. You might even just trade Saxony for Bavaria as the locus of opposition!

At the same time, we have to remember the Reformation is a sidebar conflict. The main show for the 1520's and 1530's is the death struggle with France/Francis. Is Christian II up for that, as a military leader? If the dynamic is not competition to win the support of the pope of the moment, because Christian has entered the lists on the side of the reformists, does that mean France becomes the automatic natural ally of the papacy? That, plus the likely trouble in Spain, swings the Italian wars hard against the HRE.

Fascinatingly enough, I could imagine Europe late in Christian II/Isabella's reign looking much like the old West Roman Empire, or one of the linguistic maps showing the boundaries of the romance languages.

Christian II is arguably the most fascinating of Danish Kings and his reign really marks a major potential point of divergence in any number of directions. He is married into the Imperial Habsburgs, has significant support in the Netherlands and proved himself surprisingly religiously maleable. However, of the two I actually think Isabella has the most potential to change things given how close to openly Protestant she was IOTL and the prominent roles played by Charles' other siblings.

The thing to keep an eye on is that once an Oldenburg Emperor comes to power the Imperial focus will naturally shift north-westward from Austria, particularly towards the Low Countries and if/when Denmark is taken, to Denmark as well. Additionally, the moment an Oldenburger comes to power they are going to be hell-bent on retaking the Kalmar lands, starting with Denmark but Sweden won't be far behind. The implications this shift in focus has for the struggle against the Ottomans, in Italy and against the French are all interesting to explore.

Christian II was likely too absolutist in outlook to really have had significant success as an HRE ruler and I doubt he would actually be the one who becomes Emperor either way. Far more likely (and what I did in my TL) would seem to be Hans/John/Johannes becoming Emperor, though something has to be done about the Ferdinandine line for that to work.

An Oldenburg HRE would find it next to impossible to control Spain and would have significant difficulties holding anything south of Lombardy/Veneto for any duration of time. At the same time, France could become the principal Catholic power - though their alliance with the Ottomans would likely prove to be somewhat of a problem.

If by WRE boundaries, you mean that the HRE would be all the places outside the former WRE then I think I would agree, with boundaries split between Germanic/Romance languages.

(Btw, I have really been enjoying your TL and the role played by the exiled Oldenburgs)
 
At least untill reformation, Danish HRE emperor would strongly support Teutonic Order. TO provided job for younger sons of German monarchs aristocracy, as Emperor, Danish King needs to support TO to satisfy Electors.
 

Kaze

Banned
I would go with King Canute while in Rome is crowned Emperor of the North - he successful in passing his empire in-tact to his heirs.
 
Besides the suggestion of Hans II becoming Holy Roman Emperor, a win for Christian IV at Lutter am Barenberg and the success of his pincer move against Vienna could (with a fat line under could) have unseated the emperor. Whether or not he would become emperor is another matter. Most likely he'd take on some kind of leading role of the Protestant union.
 
Top