AHC: Czech and Dutch Are Extinct

Soppto be clear, when talking about. United Germany do we meant Germania or Deutschland? I am going with the suggestions other had that people end up calling German Dutch as that is what they used to call the language anyways. Well, in English at least. I imagine that some languages would continue to separate them, much in the way that some countries seem to call English British and American due to changes in the grammar and such. Forcing the Czecks to speak German may be difficult, especially as it was generally agreed for half a millennium that the Bohemians were not Germans and not part of the HRE. There might be an economic motive to Germanize one of the wealthier areas of Central Europe, but they might prefer keeping them as second class citizens, such as with the Rhenish Poles, or how the Japanese forced then forbid Koreans to change their names to Japanese versions.

This would be more simply done with a post-1900 POD with a Nazi victory. Unlikely that anyone would have the motive or ability to change the language of so many people otherwise, especially when the Netherlands, Flanders, and Bohemia were possibly the richest parts of the mainland continent.
 
The position of Bohemia is somewhat difficult, since the ruler of Bohemia and Moravia (a separate imperial fief) was considered to be a prince of the empire (Reichsfürst).
 
and if the divergence is so early, the high-german (the standard german) would very likely also not exist. there would would be a standard german, but it would likely be different from the current one, through the simple reason, that such early political changes would change the field of political influences and thus the composition of the standard german.
and 1581 pre-1700 the netherlands is way too powerful to be overrun by some german statelets, the only way the netherlands would be incorporated in germany pre 1700 (and even pre1800) would be out of free will, and that means influence, and thus influence on the language development.

before 1581 it was spanish.

only way i see if the netherlands stays part of the HRE , but that needs a pod quite early, like willem II not dying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_II_of_Holland

but the earlier the pod, the more changes, and in all likelihood butterflying away modern german
 
Soppto be clear, when talking about. United Germany do we meant Germania or Deutschland? I am going with the suggestions other had that people end up calling German Dutch as that is what they used to call the language anyways. Well, in English at least. I imagine that some languages would continue to separate them, much in the way that some countries seem to call English British and American due to changes in the grammar and such. Forcing the Czecks to speak German may be difficult, especially as it was generally agreed for half a millennium that the Bohemians were not Germans and not part of the HRE. There might be an economic motive to Germanize one of the wealthier areas of Central Europe, but they might prefer keeping them as second class citizens, such as with the Rhenish Poles, or how the Japanese forced then forbid Koreans to change their names to Japanese versions.

This would be more simply done with a post-1900 POD with a Nazi victory. Unlikely that anyone would have the motive or ability to change the language of so many people otherwise, especially when the Netherlands, Flanders, and Bohemia were possibly the richest parts of the mainland continent.

Bohemia was actually part of Holly Roman Empire since very begining of 11th century. But you are right that Czechs were never considered to be German (look at Sachsenspiegel, for example). After all, Holly Roman Empire was just very loose confederation of de facto independent states. Bohemia was not only Slavic state within Holly Roman Empire. There were also Mecklenburg, Pommerania or Rügen. But as early as the end of 13th they all were effectively germanized. Not Bohemia. Why?

First of all, there was quite strong national feeling amongst Bohemian nobility. Bohemian nobles may imitated German fashion, gave German names to their castles, but otherwise, they still spoke Czech and actually, they had quite anti-german sentiments (look at Dalimil Chronicle).

There is another, even more important factor: Mecklenburg, Pommerania and Rügen were quite ransacked, devastated and depopulated after long wars with Saxons, Danes and Poles. They needed German settlers not just to improve level of their economy, but basically to repopulate previously depopulated land. This was not case of Bohemia, which was maybe sparsely populated in several mountainous regions, but otherwise it was quite normally populated land. So if we want to germanize Bohemia in the middle ages, we want quite disastrous war that would effectively depopulate this country. The sooner this war happen the better. Unlike other West Slavic language (even unlike Polish), Czech penetrated into written records quite early. The less chances to penetrate into written records the better chance that Bohemian nobility adopt German not just as fad but as tool of everyday communication. So the hypothetical disastrous war should happen before the end of 13th century (i. e.: before Czech translation of Alexandreis, before Kunigunde´s prayer and most importantly, before Dalimil Chronicle). Well, Bohemia should be depopulated roughly the same time as Mecklenburg, Pommerania or Rügen. After this critical date (i. e. end of 13th century), there will be still some kind of Czech protonational feeling, alas mostly amongst nobility. This would make germanization of Bohemia much more difficult.

Or we should await to Hapsburgs, more precisely to post 30 years war times and then butterfly all generation of Czech national awakers (or we should just butterfly Johann Gottfried Herder and in turn butterfly the national revival of all nations in Central and Eastern Europe).

By the way: As a Czech I am veeery glad that this all is just an alternate history:)
 
I could add that Mecklenburg, Pomerania and Rügen were indeed less developed, but not only due to devastation and depopulation. These things happened, often as a part of crusades and the attempt to Christianize these lands. However there was more to it.

German (at the time including Dutch) settlers also had the means to cultivate more lands, due to agricultural developments and other innovations (like polders). Technologies the existing populations didn't have.

So the area wasn't only sparsely populated, but settlers were also able to establish themselves in areas, which, before those innovations were developed, were less suited for substantial (by standards of the time) populations.

As for the empire as a whole, it gradually became a loose confederation of de facto independent states. There were a few events, which helped this development. The investiture controversy didn't help imperial authority, but the level of centralization wasn't much different than France.
Then there's the Interregnum after the last Hohenstaufen Holy Roman Emperor, which lead to weak successors, the first somewhat capable successor was Rudolf of Habsburg, later the Luxembourgs did a decent job, but also the Habsburgs. However after the reign of Luxembourg Holy Roman Emperor Charles IV (of Bohemia), the Imperial demesne had been decreased in such a way, that every emperor (king of the Romans) had to depend on his own dynastic powerbase.
The reformation ended up splitting the empire religiously and the fact that religious wars devastated and depopulated the empire.
Not to mention nobility, which unlike their French and English counterparts were never really reigned in by any strong central authority.
So basically (IMHO) the Holy Roman Empire only really developed in the opposite direction (when compared to France) after (or very late in) the Middle Ages.
 
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Bohemia was actually part of Holly Roman Empire since very begining of 11th century. But you are right that Czechs were never considered to be German (look at Sachsenspiegel, for example). After all, Holly Roman Empire was just very loose confederation of de facto independent states. Bohemia was not only Slavic state within Holly Roman Empire. There were also Mecklenburg, Pommerania or Rügen. But as early as the end of 13th they all were effectively germanized. Not Bohemia. Why?

First of all, there was quite strong national feeling amongst Bohemian nobility. Bohemian nobles may imitated German fashion, gave German names to their castles, but otherwise, they still spoke Czech and actually, they had quite anti-german sentiments (look at Dalimil Chronicle).

There is another, even more important factor: Mecklenburg, Pommerania and Rügen were quite ransacked, devastated and depopulated after long wars with Saxons, Danes and Poles. They needed German settlers not just to improve level of their economy, but basically to repopulate previously depopulated land. This was not case of Bohemia, which was maybe sparsely populated in several mountainous regions, but otherwise it was quite normally populated land. So if we want to germanize Bohemia in the middle ages, we want quite disastrous war that would effectively depopulate this country. The sooner this war happen the better. Unlike other West Slavic language (even unlike Polish), Czech penetrated into written records quite early. The less chances to penetrate into written records the better chance that Bohemian nobility adopt German not just as fad but as tool of everyday communication. So the hypothetical disastrous war should happen before the end of 13th century (i. e.: before Czech translation of Alexandreis, before Kunigunde´s prayer and most importantly, before Dalimil Chronicle). Well, Bohemia should be depopulated roughly the same time as Mecklenburg, Pommerania or Rügen. After this critical date (i. e. end of 13th century), there will be still some kind of Czech protonational feeling, alas mostly amongst nobility. This would make germanization of Bohemia much more difficult.

Or we should await to Hapsburgs, more precisely to post 30 years war times and then butterfly all generation of Czech national awakers (or we should just butterfly Johann Gottfried Herder and in turn butterfly the national revival of all nations in Central and Eastern Europe).

By the way: As a Czech I am veeery glad that this all is just an alternate history:)

If the Czech nobility in Bohemia and Moravia were able to fend Germanization, is it possible for the Polish nobility in Silesia to stay in Silesia instead of Germanizing or migrating to Poland-Lithuania and manage to make Silesia predominantly Polish - one of the earliest print works in Polish was made in Lower Silesia in Wroclaw, a place that was already completely Germanized before World War I
 
Much as I also don't see 1776 working...

How about the Hussite wars? In a sense, they pitted mostly-Czech Hussites (of various stripes) against mostly-German Catholics. A POD that maintains the unity of the Hussites while leading to their absolute defeat could turn Czech into a language of heretics... which noone wants to be associated with.

It still wouldn't exterminate Czech in one go, but if it decays enough, industrialisation might see it die out entirely (as happened to many other tiny dialects in that period).
 
and if the divergence is so early, the high-german (the standard german) would very likely also not exist. there would would be a standard german, but it would likely be different from the current one, through the simple reason, that such early political changes would change the field of political influences and thus the composition of the standard german.
and 1581 pre-1700 the netherlands is way too powerful to be overrun by some german statelets, the only way the netherlands would be incorporated in germany pre 1700 (and even pre1800) would be out of free will, and that means influence, and thus influence on the language development.

before 1581 it was spanish.

only way i see if the netherlands stays part of the HRE , but that needs a pod quite early, like willem II not dying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_II_of_Holland

but the earlier the pod, the more changes, and in all likelihood butterflying away modern german

I share much of your analysis, though I do have some remarks. Before the house of Valois-Burgundy started to unite the Low Countries, this areas was filled with small statelets too, just like their neighbours to the east.

Before 1581 it had been Habsburg since 1482 (and Valois-Burgundy from 1384 onwards (much was gained between 1429 and 1443 though)), it only was Spanish Habsburg, when Philip II took over in 1555. Under Charles V the Spanish Kingdoms were Burgundian Habsburg. ;)

Willem II of Holland might be a start, but de facto he was an anti-king of the Romans, so he wasn't universally accepted, though if he had stayed around longer he might have been.

Perhaps another dynasty from the Low Countries or a nearby German principality unites the region, they might be more and continuously interested in imperial politics than the OTL house of Valois-Burgundy with French roots and important French holdings.
 
Much as I also don't see 1776 working...

How about the Hussite wars? In a sense, they pitted mostly-Czech Hussites (of various stripes) against mostly-German Catholics. A POD that maintains the unity of the Hussites while leading to their absolute defeat could turn Czech into a language of heretics... which noone wants to be associated with.

It still wouldn't exterminate Czech in one go, but if it decays enough, industrialisation might see it die out entirely (as happened to many other tiny dialects in that period).

But still, you have quite many Czech speaking anti-hussite Catholics. City of Plisen spoke Czech, many powerful noble houses including Rosenberg, Sternberg, Lobkowicz, etc. spoke Czech... After all, even Sigismund of Luxembourg regularly enacted his royal charters in Czech.

So we need every important Czech speaking Catholic family (or at least Rosenbergs), every important Czech speaking Catholic city (most notably Pilsen) to stay Hussite. And in turn after defeat of Hussites there should be quite brutal purges and expropriations.
 
Your goal, if you choose to accept it, is to Germanize modern Czech Republic and the Netherlands and Flanders to where they are basically extinct. They could also be German dialects controlled in a United Germany. The point of divergence must be no earlier than 1776.

Dutch could be considered a German dialect. The reason it is considered a separate language is because it early on got its own standardized written language.
 
You mentioned this multiple times before, but it is still untrue nonsense. There were minority dialects in these areas that were very similar to Dutch, but the majority of people in these areas already spoke German for a long time before.

What is German? Standard German? Dutch could be considered a German dialect. It is hardly as if the German dialects are very similar and with a lack of continuiy at the Dutch-German border...
 
Dutch could be considered a German dialect. The reason it is considered a separate language is because it early on got its own standardized written language.
Seems that Deutsch could be considered a German dialect, considering how the Austrian, Dutch, and Swiss versions came first.
 
Seems that Deutsch could be considered a German dialect, considering how the Austrian, Dutch, and Swiss versions came first.

Yes, they are all just variants of the same dialect continuum. That could be said of both the dialects and the standard languages. What you call the language continuum, might be a matter of preference.
 
I could add that Mecklenburg, Pomerania and Rügen were indeed less developed, but not only due to devastation and depopulation. These things happened, often as a part of crusades and the attempt to Christianize these lands. However there was more to it.

German (at the time including Dutch) settlers also had the means to cultivate more lands, due to agricultural developments and other innovations (like polders). Technologies the existing populations didn't have.

So the area wasn't only sparsely populated, but settlers were also able to establish themselves in areas, which, before those innovations were developed, were less suited for substantial (by standards of the time) populations.

Without constant wars with Saxons, Danes and Poles, Mecklenburg, Pommerania and Rügen would be as (un)developed as Bohemia, Hungary or Poland. All these three countries experienced German colonization. But neither of these countries was Germanized.

So I think that the wars and subsequent depopulation played crucial role in later Germanization of these north-western slavic countries. Bohemia, on the other hand, was quite normaly populated, except sparsely populated mountaneous borderlands.

So in my humble opinion this is the main reason why Bohemia was not germanized. There was need for improve the level of local economy but there was no need for repopulation of war-torn country.
 
As creator of this thread, I hope this argument stops. Please carry this to PM, and do not continue arguing in this thread. I hope nobody is offended by me asking this of you. Please do consider my advice, however. It is arguing about the facts that we cannot find reliable sources for that would result in going off topic. I hope that either you limit yourselves to discussing how the languages were different or could go to PM to do this. Please PM me if you wish me to rescind this request.

Actually, arguing that Dutch is a German dialect is highly relevant. You cannot Germanize something that is already German (the Dutch language), unless you by German means Standard German or some non-Dutch German dialect spoken in Germany. I would, however, argue that this is not a good definition of "Germanization", as it is more political than linguistic. When it comes to the Czech lands, the following thread might also be relevant: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=339465
 
Without constant wars with Saxons, Danes and Poles, Mecklenburg, Pommerania and Rügen would be as (un)developed as Bohemia, Hungary or Poland. All these three countries experienced German colonization. But neither of these countries was Germanized.

So I think that the wars and subsequent depopulation played crucial role in later Germanization of these north-western slavic countries. Bohemia, on the other hand, was quite normaly populated, except sparsely populated mountaneous borderlands.

So in my humble opinion this is the main reason why Bohemia was not germanized. There was need for improve the level of local economy but there was no need for repopulation of war-torn country.

I respectfully do not fully agree with you. Even without those conflicts, that region was thinly populated. In part, because technologies to fully develop certain areas had recently (at that time) been developed.
So the region wasn't only sparsely populated, they also had the technology to settle more people in previously less suited areas.

Whereas in kingdoms like Hungary, Poland and Bohemia, they basically only could substantially settle in regions, which had come available due to recent technological developments and/or underdeveloped areas.

So there are more parts to the process of colonization.
 
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Actually, arguing that Dutch is a German dialect is highly relevant. You cannot Germanize something that is already German (the Dutch language), unless you by German means Standard German or some non-Dutch German dialect spoken in Germany. I would, however, argue that this is not a good definition of "Germanization", as it is more political than linguistic. When it comes to the Czech lands, the following thread might also be relevant: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=339465

Dutch isn't a German dialect, however Dutch and German dialects belong to the same dialect continuum.
Or are Norwegian, Danish and Swedish all dialects from Scandinavian?
 
Dutch isn't a German dialect, however Dutch and German dialects belong to the same dialect continuum.
Or are Norwegian, Danish and Swedish all dialects from Scandinavian?

That is a typical Nationalist way of looking at it. Yes, it is definitely more sensible to talk about Scandinavian dialects than Norwegian dialects, as the easternmost dialects in Norway are closer to the westernmost in Sweden than to the westernmost in Norway. What you prefer to call the German-Dutch dialect continuum is a matter of choice, but putting the the dialect of Cleves together with the dialect of Vienna without also adding the dialects of the Netherlands is just as ridicolous as putting chimpanzees in the same group as dogs without also adding humans. I have even heard some Swedish Nationalists who call Elfdalian a Swedish dialect. If Elfdalian is a Swedish dialect, then so is practically all the dialects in Norway and Denmark, as they are closer to most of the Swedish dialects than are Elfdalian, which is a very conservative language.
 
Dutch isn't a German dialect, however Dutch and German dialects belong to the same dialect continuum.
Dutch is as much a German dialect, as German is a Dutch dialect. Just the fact that German has more people who speak it, does not mean that Dutch is a German dialect. Both have their roots in the same dialect continuum and developed seperately.
 

Kingpoleon

Banned
Soppto be clear, when talking about. United Germany do we meant Germania or Deutschland? I am going with the suggestions other had that people end up calling German Dutch as that is what they used to call the language anyways. Well, in English at least. I imagine that some languages would continue to separate them, much in the way that some countries seem to call English British and American due to changes in the grammar and such. Forcing the Czecks to speak German may be difficult, especially as it was generally agreed for half a millennium that the Bohemians were not Germans and not part of the HRE. There might be an economic motive to Germanize one of the wealthier areas of Central Europe, but they might prefer keeping them as second class citizens, such as with the Rhenish Poles, or how the Japanese forced then forbid Koreans to change their names to Japanese versions.

This would be more simply done with a post-1900 POD with a Nazi victory. Unlikely that anyone would have the motive or ability to change the language of so many people otherwise, especially when the Netherlands, Flanders, and Bohemia were possibly the richest parts of the mainland continent.
Actually, until 1868, each dialect was referred to as such, I. E. Bavarian, Prussian and the like. The Bohemians were part of the HRE.
 
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