AHC Croatian 'Russia'

I know that in Kievian Rus that the White Croats are important in the identity and history of the Ukrainians and the Russians, it is that they changed their identity when Poland and Rus were first established, is it possible that they maintain their identity and stay Eastern Christian and be the equivalent of OTL Russia bonus points if it becomes as succesful as OTL Russia and has a similar territory as OTL Russia.
 
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Very improbable, I mean just look at the ratio of population of two nations.
Croatia/Russia - 4.2 mil/143 mil.
I doubt it was that much different in the 10th and 11th cent, in the time of Kievan Rus ( They had approximately 7.5 mil people when Mongols invaded ).

Now if White Croatians somehow end up instead of Rurik his guys leading the Eastern Slavic polities you would still need to make it a very sturdy social structure that would ensure that no Croat is assimilated into domestic population.

Something like Manchu on top and Han people below. They managed to pull that off for 3 centuries in the end, and without assimilation.
 
Very improbable, I mean just look at the ratio of population of two nations.
Croatia/Russia - 4.2 mil/143 mil.
I doubt it was that much different in the 10th and 11th cent, in the time of Kievan Rus ( They had approximately 7.5 mil people when Mongols invaded ).

Now if White Croatians somehow end up instead of Rurik his guys leading the Eastern Slavic polities you would still need to make it a very sturdy social structure that would ensure that no Croat is assimilated into domestic population.

Something like Manchu on top and Han people below. They managed to pull that off for 3 centuries in the end, and without assimilation.

Actually, the Eastern Slavs were called Antes while the West Slavs were called Venedae and Malopolska,Silesia and Galicia was known as White Croatia, is it possible for this state to survive and take over the role of OTL Russia?
 
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Something I can sink my teeth in.

What you ask is really a challenge. The location of White Croatia while heavy implied where it had been has not been located. Research over the past 50 years has come to a conclusion that existance of several "White Croatias" along the Carpathians is not improbable. So the White Croats in Czech basin are not the same White Croats of northern Slovakia - upper Vistula region are not the same White Croats of Galicia are not the same White Croats of Kiev region.

The White Croats are one of those things in history that makes you wonder "how come nothing came out of it?". My current level of expertise allows me to conclude that they just took the wrong part of the pricarpathian region. The places where White Croats are encountered is a medieval highway and a very luctrative area to hold. In times of stability is great but when there is trouble abroad it is awful since any raiding group coming from the Pontic region will use those lands for their movement west causing instability and impovershiment.


Here is a list of things that should happen for Croatia to be Russia.

1) the Croat component is the main component in the founding of Kiev rather than the least of the three
2) the dispersed White Croat communities are united in a single whole sometimes after the Avars entering the Pannonian Basin and the arrival of the Magyars, the unification could also happen under the aegis of the Khaganate
3) they accept Christianity(or Islam - that would really cause some butterflies) before the arrival Frankish missionaries so they can develop their own unique church structure
4) the state that is formed must protect the pricarpathian "highway" from raids, if they are able to do that they become one of the richest places in Europe since much of North European trade with the East goes through them.
 
Very improbable, I mean just look at the ratio of population of two nations.
Croatia/Russia - 4.2 mil/143 mil.

The population of modern-day nations is irrelevant, as most modern nations are the products of mass assimilation - A small population speaking a certain language rose to prominence and spread its language over the many others who were also living there. Modern Croatians aren't just descended from the Croats, but also the ancient Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, other Illyrian tribes, Greek and Roman settlers, and a few Avars who passed through. Similarly, the area where the Russians originated was the crossroads for many groups of people passing through to Europe, including not only Slavs but Scythians, Sarmatians, various Turkic tribes, and Vikings.
 
Very improbable, I mean just look at the ratio of population of two nations.
Croatia/Russia - 4.2 mil/143 mil.
I doubt it was that much different in the 10th and 11th cent, in the time of Kievan Rus ( They had approximately 7.5 mil people when Mongols invaded ).

Now if White Croatians somehow end up instead of Rurik his guys leading the Eastern Slavic polities you would still need to make it a very sturdy social structure that would ensure that no Croat is assimilated into domestic population.

Something like Manchu on top and Han people below. They managed to pull that off for 3 centuries in the end, and without assimilation.

If you think modern population is indicative of past population then I have a bridge to sell you. During 1500 or so there were estimated half as many Great Russians as there were inhabitants of the Italian peninsula for example.
 
Something I can sink my teeth in.

What you ask is really a challenge. The location of White Croatia while heavy implied where it had been has not been located. Research over the past 50 years has come to a conclusion that existance of several "White Croatias" along the Carpathians is not improbable. So the White Croats in Czech basin are not the same White Croats of northern Slovakia - upper Vistula region are not the same White Croats of Galicia are not the same White Croats of Kiev region.

The White Croats are one of those things in history that makes you wonder "how come nothing came out of it?". My current level of expertise allows me to conclude that they just took the wrong part of the pricarpathian region. The places where White Croats are encountered is a medieval highway and a very luctrative area to hold. In times of stability is great but when there is trouble abroad it is awful since any raiding group coming from the Pontic region will use those lands for their movement west causing instability and impovershiment.


Here is a list of things that should happen for Croatia to be Russia.

1) the Croat component is the main component in the founding of Kiev rather than the least of the three
2) the dispersed White Croat communities are united in a single whole sometimes after the Avars entering the Pannonian Basin and the arrival of the Magyars, the unification could also happen under the aegis of the Khaganate
3) they accept Christianity(or Islam - that would really cause some butterflies) before the arrival Frankish missionaries so they can develop their own unique church structure
4) the state that is formed must protect the pricarpathian "highway" from raids, if they are able to do that they become one of the richest places in Europe since much of North European trade with the East goes through them.

We can also have no migration to 'Red Croatia', giving a larger Croat population base in White Croatia.
 
If you think modern population is indicative of past population then I have a bridge to sell you. During 1500 or so there were estimated half as many Great Russians as there were inhabitants of the Italian peninsula for example.

This actually begs the question of when and why did the image of Slavic hordes emerge; it existed during Napoleon's day but the Empire's population, IIRC, was about the same as Russia's.
 
We can also have no migration to 'Red Croatia', giving a larger Croat population base in White Croatia.

Actually if various records are believed Croats migrated from White Croatia to another White Croatia with only a portion of those moving further south to found Red Croatia, but Red Croatia is a whole nother can worms.

Also the migration couldn't have been big since the legend speaks that from one familiy of Croats living in the north 5 brothers and 2 sisters gathered their people and moved south.

In addition the whole migaration period especially the Slavic migration is not some mass of people traveling countles leagues to settle in new lands. It is mostly groups of warriors several thousand strong at most traveling around and sometimes followed by their families. The slavs are even more enigmatic, only raiding parties are mentioned but in 50 years since their migrations began they have come to dominate half of europe.
 
This actually begs the question of when and why did the image of Slavic hordes emerge; it existed during Napoleon's day but the Empire's population, IIRC, was about the same as Russia's.

Well from the 1790s onwards Russia saw a very high growth rate due to increased use of the potato and proper conquest of the black earth region. Much like the chinese economy today, the perception of future growth can colour accurate assessment of the present, and when Russia is adding ~10 million a decade like it did for most of the 19th century...

Also 1800 is when the Russia empire was perceptibly the most populous European country, certainly more than pre-Empire France by a good five million. The actual point Russia was the populous came somewhere in the 1780s.
 
Something I can sink my teeth in.

What you ask is really a challenge. The location of White Croatia while heavy implied where it had been has not been located. Research over the past 50 years has come to a conclusion that existance of several "White Croatias" along the Carpathians is not improbable. So the White Croats in Czech basin are not the same White Croats of northern Slovakia - upper Vistula region are not the same White Croats of Galicia are not the same White Croats of Kiev region.

The White Croats are one of those things in history that makes you wonder "how come nothing came out of it?". My current level of expertise allows me to conclude that they just took the wrong part of the pricarpathian region. The places where White Croats are encountered is a medieval highway and a very luctrative area to hold. In times of stability is great but when there is trouble abroad it is awful since any raiding group coming from the Pontic region will use those lands for their movement west causing instability and impovershiment.


Here is a list of things that should happen for Croatia to be Russia.

1) the Croat component is the main component in the founding of Kiev rather than the least of the three
2) the dispersed White Croat communities are united in a single whole sometimes after the Avars entering the Pannonian Basin and the arrival of the Magyars, the unification could also happen under the aegis of the Khaganate
3) they accept Christianity(or Islam - that would really cause some butterflies) before the arrival Frankish missionaries so they can develop their own unique church structure
4) the state that is formed must protect the pricarpathian "highway" from raids, if they are able to do that they become one of the richest places in Europe since much of North European trade with the East goes through them.
The White Croats were Greek Rite Christians before Poland and Rus incorporated them.
 
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The White Croats were Greek Rite Christians before Poland and Rus incorporated them.

Where do you get that from? Because they will still pagan at the time Vladimir I fought them in 992 and archaelogical research of the region has yet to find significant traces of chistianity beyond the odd individual.

Also do not mix the Czech White Croats of Saint Adalbert/Vojtech with the Galician ones. They could have been connected but they could also have been a separate group sharing the name just like the several groups of bulgarians.
 
Where do you get that from? Because they will still pagan at the time Vladimir I fought them in 992 and archaelogical research of the region has yet to find significant traces of chistianity beyond the odd individual.

Also do not mix the Czech White Croats of Saint Adalbert/Vojtech with the Galician ones. They could have been connected but they could also have been a separate group sharing the name just like the several groups of bulgarians.

The Silesians and Vistulans used to call themselves Croats as well and they are the ones that accepted eastern christianity.
 
The Silesians and Vistulans used to call themselves Croats as well and they are the ones that accepted eastern christianity.

We don't know that. We don't know if they even called themselves Vistulans. It might have been two separate tribes living in the same area.
 
The Silesians and Vistulans used to call themselves Croats as well and they are the ones that accepted eastern christianity.

Ah I see. Apart from agreeing with what ctesiphon said it is a common misunderstaning to lump all the various tribes carrying the name Croat/White Croat in the same cathegory. It is possible they could have been the same people scatered across wide distances but it is more likely they were several distinct tribes with shared origin and having the same name.


I tried searching for a good map to show what I mean but ATM there is none. I guess I'll have to make one.
 
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