AHC Crimean Gothic Persistance

[Hvalrossen]

Make the Crimean Goths persist as a "people" into the 21 century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Goths
http://www.gotica.de/taurica.html (A. Busbecq´s Letters: Editions and Translations)
https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/gotol/100 (Gothic Language Online)
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/germ/got/krimgot/krimg.htm?krimg001.htm (The Account of Crimean Gothic contained in Busbecq's letter)
http://www.graal.org.ua/en/theodoro-principality/history-of-theodoro (Basic complete history of Theodoro principality, the region of Gothia)
http://www.graal.org.ua/en/theodoro-principality/history-of-theodoro/23-djihad (Specifically regarding Tamerlane's war in Crimea)

 

[Ivoshafen]

It really can't happen unless you screw Byzantium/Turks/Tatars/AnyOtherPowerInTheRegion

While I love the Goths, once they transfer into Crimea they essentially seal their fate, it's too important not to conquer and too easy not to assimilate them

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

Would it be cheating to just have the Goths in general stay in Eastern Europe (say, no Huns or something to that effect) and become the dominant culture in the region? Then, Crimea would be Gothic... just the same as the Ukraine/Belarus/much of European Russia/etc.

 

[Ivoshafen]

Would it be cheating to just have the Goths in general stay in Eastern Europe (say, no Huns or something to that effect) and become the dominant culture in the region? Then, Crimea would be Gothic... just the same as the Ukraine/Belarus/much of European Russia/etc.

Gothland from the Baltic Sea to Crimea!

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

Gothland from the Baltic Sea to Crimea!

Germanic Eastern Europe, Iranic Western Europe.

 

[Ivoshafen]

Germanic Eastern Europe, Iranic Western Europe.

Why not both

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

Why not both

Exactly.

 

[Hvalrossen]

It really can't happen unless you screw Byzantium/Turks/Tatars/AnyOtherPowerInTheRegion

While I love the Goths, once they transfer into Crimea they essentially seal their fate, it's too important not to conquer and too easy not to assimilate them

Crimean Tatars did OTL become Crimea's largest ethnic group untill Russian conquest when many had to flee. The Russian Empire then settled christians there to condsolidate the region as a part of the Russian empire, some jews also settled in Crimea. The christians were mostly Slavic, German, and Armenian. The Crimean Tatar's are descendant of eastern nomads but also other groups that have inhabitated Crimea. The other groups range from Goth, Greek, Italian, Schytian, Armenians, Cumans and Kipchaks. The Crimean Tatars are today considered indiginous to Crimea, and these DNA samples showing the complex heritage of Crimean Tatars strengthen this view.

Most residents seem to have assimilated to different waves of conquerors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars#Sub-ethnic_groups
http://www.iccrimea.org/reports/genographic-results.html

 

[Hvalrossen]

Would it be cheating to just have the Goths in general stay in Eastern Europe (say, no Huns or something to that effect) and become the dominant culture in the region? Then, Crimea would be Gothic... just the same as the Ukraine/Belarus/much of European Russia/etc.

Could not the Crimean Goths persist as a minority, do they have to be the dominant group?

 

[Arkenfolm]

Germanic Eastern Europe, Iranic Western Europe.

I can't imagine how many people would need to die to have the Alans conquer and assimilate Western Europe. Assuming the "Alans" as mentioned in Late Antiquity actually were Iranic-speaking and not just a few Alan-speaking people who gathered a bunch of other people (probably Germanic speakers) to their banner and became known as the Alans.

Could not the Crimean Goths persist as a minority, do they have to be the dominant group?

They were a thoroughly Hellenised people who had lived under Byzantine domination for centuries. With the end of Byzantine rule in Crimea, it isn't surprising that they were assimilated into the wider Greek population.

 

[Hvalrossen]

They were a thoroughly Hellenised people who had lived under Byzantine domination for centuries. With the end of Byzantine rule in Crimea, it isn't surprising that they were assimilated into the wider Greek population.

The crimean Goths can be influenced by other peoples without dissapearing. OTL Jews, Romani have done so till today. Aromanians, Sami, Forest Finns in Norway and Sweden and Crimean Tatars also did so until recently.

Edit:
OTL the Crimean Gothic is speculated or thought to have lasted until 1780, when the Archbishop of Mogilev called Stanisław Siestrzeńcewicz-Bohusz visited Southern Crimea. There Stanislaw met some Tatars who spoke a form of German but not "normal German", that probably was Crimean Gothic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic#Extinction
https://books.google.de/books?id=vLsPAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA168#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also OTL the only source that gives detail of the language itself, and not merely talking about Crimean Goths is to be found in the Flemish ambassador to the Ottoman's letter. Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq's letter provides us with around 80 Gothic words.

Busbecq's account is problematic in a number of ways. First, his informants were not unimpeachable; one was a Greek speaker who knew Crimean Gothic as a second language, and the other was a Goth who had abandoned his native language in favour of Greek. Second, Busbecq's transcription was likely influenced by his own language, a Flemish dialect of Dutch. Finally, there are undoubted typographical errors in known extant versions of the account.

Here is some of the words discovered by Busbeq.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic#Attestation

These sources tell us that the Goths were being assimilated continually throughout the medieval and modern time period. But also that they managed to survive longer than the Byzantine empire.

 

[Sirdragon]

It really can't happen unless you screw Byzantium/Turks/Tatars/AnyOtherPowerInTheRegion

While I love the Goths, once they transfer into Crimea they essentially seal their fate, it's too important not to conquer and too easy not to assimilate them

All you really need is to increased flooding in north Crimea (maybe due to earl little ice age a little) turning the peninsula into a island. (Beacuse the steppe turks are terrible at amphibious warfare.)

Or have the goths do what the danish did with their peninsula and build a Danevirke.

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

I can't imagine how many people would need to die to have the Alans conquer and assimilate Western Europe. Assuming the "Alans" as mentioned in Late Antiquity actually were Iranic-speaking and not just a few Alan-speaking people who gathered a bunch of other people (probably Germanic speakers) to their banner and became known as the Alans.

Oh, I wasn't being entirely serious, just speculating about how Europe could have developed differently had Germanic peoples gone to/stayed in Eastern Europe. More likely Western Europe would've been Romano-Celtic in such a scenario.

 

[Sirdragon]

Oh, I wasn't being entirely serious, just speculating about how Europe could have developed differently had Germanic peoples gone to/stayed in Eastern Europe. More likely Western Europe would've been Romano-Celtic in such a scenario.

Doubtful the franks were already settling the western rhine before the apperance of the huns.

Without them the only diffrence is the fact that might take longer to settle it . And it might prevent the franks from conquering the sossions in frace proper. But they will still conquer the rhine lands.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Could the Crimean Goths survive as a minority group? The Crimean Goths don't have to inhabit Crimea but can inhabit other areas of the planet, say Siberia, Manchuria, United States or Africa.

 

[Hvalrossen]

OTL the Crimean Goths went through different religious stages, where most if not all shared similar religous beliefs..
Stage 1: Gothic Paganism
Stage 2: Arian Christianity
Stage 3: Orthodox Christianity

Let's say that the Crimean Goths were still pagan when pagan hordes take Crimea, how would it affect them differently compared to OTl, if it would make a difference at all.

On the other hand, if the Crimean Goths were Arian Christians as Crimea was taken and ruled by muslims. How would this affect the Crimean Goths? Would the Crimean Goths being Arian Christians thus rejecting the trinity, increase the Crimean Goths likelihood and speed of conversion to Islam? Would Arian Goths recieve preferential treatment over other christians?

 

[Hvalrossen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Christianity#Goths

 

[Hvalrossen]

http://www.genlinginterface.com/wp-...an-Goths-and-contemporary-European-Romani.pdf

According to the author Goths and Romani were in the Byzantine empire at the same time(1200s). In the 1200s the Romani mostly made their living from animal taming and fortune telling. Later in Ottoman times many Romani had become blacksmiths. The author connects this with Goths being integrated into Romani society, since he does not present evidence of earlier Romani blacksmithing, while presenting sources that suggest the Crimean Goths had aquired blacksmithing skills.

Edit:
This all proposes a answer to where some of the Goths who made up the Crimean Gothic population could have gone or dissapeared into.

 

[Hvalrossen]

According to Alexander Vasiliev the story of the Gothia begins with the christianization of the Goths in the 4th century AD, and ends with the mass exodus of 30 thousand christians between 1771-1786.

This makes me wonder if the exodus was in anyway connected to wars fought in that region between the Russian and Ottoman empires? Since Russia annexed Crimea in 1783.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Empire

 

[Hvalrossen]

The spelling of the names of ethnic groups seem to have changed slightly. Also could these titles that the author claim could have a ethnic significance, instead have regional significance?

Aside from those with the most easy translations who could the others be? I will put some of the translations from the older to newer titels.
Isauricus - ?
Cillicius - Cillicia as a region
Armenicus - Armenia as a region or an ethnic group?
Dalamaticus - Dalamaticus could refer to the Dalmatian region(present day Croation coast) or Dalmatians as a Latin ethnic group.
Ugricus - Possibly Greeks?
Bosniacus - Seem to refer to Bosnia as region but perhaps as a ethnic group?
Chrobaticus - Croatia as a region or Croatians as a ethnic group
Lazieus - Maybe Laz region of north eastern Turkey? Or maybe Hungary?
Ibericus - Possibly caucasian Iberia?
Bulgaricus - Bulgaria as ethnic group or region?
Zikhieus - ?
Azaricus - Maybe Azeris?
Gothicus - Gothia(Crimea) as a region or Goths as a ethnic group?