AHC: create the WAllied long range fighter force

Several candidates so far:
-Spitfire VIII/IX, but with extra fuel behind the pilot
-early F4U plumbed for drop tanks
-P-38 as per OTL
-Mustang with Merlin XX/45/V-1650-1 and drop tanks

Also Worth considering:
-P-47 with drop tanks under wings
-Mustang X (RR conversion of Mustang I featuring a 2-stage Merlin) + drop tanks (mentioned at Sbiper's timeline)
-Typhoon with extra fuel?

How about getting the Hawker Tempest into service a little earlier?
435mph max Speed
740 mile range on internal fuel, 1,580 with drop-tanks.
The Napier engined Tempest V didn't enter operational service until April 1944. Which is a problem, however design work started in March 1940 and the prototype flew in September 1942, and it was generally optimised for under 20,000ft which is also a problem for a bomber escort.
 
I was trying to provoke a Hellcat wank.

OTL Hellcat was a bigger airplane than F8F Bearcat.
Hellcat had a maximum take-off weight of 15,400 pounds and 2,000 horsepower. Wing loading 43 pounds per square foot and power loading of 0.16 horsepower per pound. Drag area 7 square feet and a lift to drag ratio of 12.2. Ferry range 13,000 miles, climb 3,500 feet per minute, ceiling 37,000 feet but top speed of only 330 knots. Hecould carry a ton (2,000 lbs) of bombs.

Bearcat had MTOW of 9,600 pounds, plus a 2,300 hp. version of the same engine producing a wing-loading of 39 posf and a power-loading of 0.22 hp/lb, range of 11,000 miles, 4,500 fpm, ceiling 38,000 feet and a top speed of 421 knots. Bearcat could only carry half a ton (1,000 pounds) of bombs.
Bearcat was primarily designed as a point-defence interceptor that optimized speed by wrapping the smallest possible airframe around the most powerful engine (2,300 hp) available.

I was trying to provoke a Hellcat wank.
How much could better streamlining improve Hellcat speed and range? ...... especially range for this thread!
 
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In a Grumman-wank I asked what aerodynamic improvements would allow a Super-Hellcat to exceed 400 knots?
Keep the original engine, landing gear, 20mm guns, etc., but "tweet" the rest of the airframe to reduce drag.

Tighter engine cowling?
Spinner?
Internal cooling fan (ala. FW-190)?
Malcolm hood?
Semi-bubble canopy (copied from FW-190)?
Move carburetor and oil cooler intakes to wing roots where they blur into fillets?
Laminar wing?
Reduced weight?
Suggestions?

Those are all good suggestions, but having them all to be engineered, manufactured and tested would've meant a year or more - and I want Allied fighters above Germany in mid-1943 :)

This has been an informative TL.
Particular like the long-range spitfire for s simple technical change. However, instability sounds quite bad in an aircraft..
Anyone have a Notion on how this would have inpacted performance? Only available to veterans?
Not good for combat I guess, but how much of the fuel would be spent on take off, getting to altitude (6000 m's) and getting to the bombers?
Finally, all the piston engine aircraft has a good space behind the pilot. Would this kind of solution work with any aircraft?

Spitfire with rear tanks has same issue as the P-51 with fuselage tank - pilot needs to spend at least 1/2 of the fuel from those tank(s) before maneuvering is not a risky thing.
Rear fuel tanks worked on the Spit, P-51, P-40, Fw 190, Bf 109, but were considered risky on P-47 field mod, for example.
 
Also Worth considering:
-P-47 with drop tanks under wings
...
-Typhoon with extra fuel?

Some OTL ideas to extend the radius of the P-47:
- metal drop tank of 200 gals, that can be pressurized, 1st manuffactured at Brisbane, Australia, from Aug. 1943. Easier fit than the wig tanks, less a dragy thing too.
- slipper tank, 70 gals, tested in mid-1944, along the under-seat 42 gal tank, again by 5th Air Force of Gen. Kenney

How about getting the Hawker Tempest into service a little earlier?
435mph max Speed
740 mile range on internal fuel, 1,580 with drop-tanks.
The Napier engined Tempest V didn't enter operational service until April 1944. Which is a problem, however design work started in March 1940 and the prototype flew in September 1942, and it was generally optimised for under 20,000ft which is also a problem for a bomber escort.

I'd like to see the Typhoon with LE extensions, akin to the current ATL P-38 got, for less drag and more fuel and better altitude capabilities.
 
Those are all good suggestions, but having them all to be engineered, manufactured and tested would've meant a year or more - and I want Allied fighters above Germany in mid-1943 :)



Spitfire with rear tanks has same issue as the P-51 with fuselage tank - pilot needs to spend at least 1/2 of the fuel from those tank(s) before maneuvering is not a risky thing.
Rear fuel tanks worked on the Spit, P-51, P-40, Fw 190, Bf 109, but were considered risky on P-47 field mod, for example.
I thought the Bf109 and fw-190 were rather short-legged creatures? All models?
 
I was referring to the security concerns, not the range.
Thank you, just wanted to find out if this is a general solution to other what if's which it might be.
A good solution to the spitfire when their need arose and with s bit of foresight also to other aircraft. Maybe not the
Bf109, indeed already partially behind the cockpit, but Bf110 could maybe have used the same rather than their protruding extra tanks and he-100 (my personal favorite) had the tanks entirely in the wing.
 
Ahh, eight Marines...the original post said 5 guys...thought they'd invaded somewhere and started a hamburger chain...
They sent 8, but they only needed 5, so the other 3 went to find out how fast the taxis were.:openedeyewink:

And a more serious point: was there a reason NAA couldn't have mounted that 85 USgal tank under the pilot's seat/cockpit?
In a Grumman-wank I asked what aerodynamic improvements would allow a Super-Hellcat to exceed 400 knots?
If you're going to ponder that, what about stuffing an R4360 in the nose of the F4U?:eek::cool::cool: Sell it to the Army as the P-75.:openedeyewink:
 
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And a more serious point: was there a reason NAA couldn't have mounted that 85 USgal tank under the pilot's seat/cockpit?

mustang-9_EN.jpg
 
Regarding the F4U as a potential candidate for our late 42/43 LR escort

While it was a good fighter was it still a good fighter up at the rareified heights that such combat's took place? ie 30,000 odd feet!

If not could it be?
 
Regarding the F4U as a potential candidate for our late 42/43 LR escort
While it was a good fighter was it still a good fighter up at the rareified heights that such combat's took place? ie 30,000 odd feet!
...

F4U was well suited for hi-alt work. Max speed on military power was attained at 24000-25000 ft (390-400 mph), while at 30000 ft it was still good for 370 mph, give or take. The good performance at such high altitudes, despite being a huge fighter, was due the engine outfitted with 2-stage supercharger.
For comparison, the Spitfires with 60 series Merlins were about as fast*, so was the Fw 190A-5; early P-47C/D (= no wing racks that cost IIRC about 10 mph) was making 420-430 mph between 25000-30000 ft - turbo was paying off there.

*actually, the Spitfire VIIs/VIIIs/IXs were making about 400 mph between 25000 and 30000 ft; with Merlin 70s went even faster there
 
F4U was well suited for hi-alt work. Max speed on military power was attained at 24000-25000 ft (390-400 mph), while at 30000 ft it was still good for 370 mph, give or take. The good performance at such high altitudes, despite being a huge fighter, was due the engine outfitted with 2-stage supercharger.
For comparison, the Spitfires with 60 series Merlins were about as fast*, so was the Fw 190A-5; early P-47C/D (= no wing racks that cost IIRC about 10 mph) was making 420-430 mph between 25000-30000 ft - turbo was paying off there.

*actually, the Spitfire IXs were making about 400 mph between 25000 and 30000 ft

Thats good to know - cheers

So definately a contender
 
Key with Marshall was to keep any possible imaginable sign that there was ever a Marine in the room hidden. He despised the Corps (he felt that the Marines had "stolen all the glory" from the Army during WW II), even refused to consider allowing a half squadron of Marine Corsairs into the ETO to attack the V-1 launch facilities with Tiny Tim 11.75" rockets.

Now that part of AANW makes sense!! :)
 
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