AHC: create the WAllied long range fighter force

The good news regarding training is that the aircraft was very similar to the Thunderbolt (same engine, similar performance) so getting AAF pursuit pilots up to speed would be fairly simple. Most important thing is to leave them unpainted, and make damned sure no one says "Marine Corps" anywhere near Marshall.
The Marines flew B-25s in the Pacific (PBJs) and the Navy operated B-24s (PBY-4) so I think Marshall would see 8th Air Force Corsairs as a trade. The Army can always give their Corsairs a different name like they did with the Dauntless dive bomber (A-24 Banshee).
How does P-48 Comanche sound?
Another good thing is that the Royal Navy was buying Corsairs for the FAA. The RAF might show an interest as well?
 

CalBear

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The Marines flew B-25s in the Pacific (PBJs) and the Navy operated B-24s (PBY-4) so I think Marshall would see 8th Air Force Corsairs as a trade. The Army can always give their Corsairs a different name like they did with the Dauntless dive bomber (A-24 Banshee).
How does P-48 Comanche sound?
Another good thing is that the Royal Navy was buying Corsairs for the FAA. The RAF might show an interest as well?


Key with Marshall was to keep any possible imaginable sign that there was ever a Marine in the room hidden. He despised the Corps (he felt that the Marines had "stolen all the glory" from the Army during WW II), even refused to consider allowing a half squadron of Marine Corsairs into the ETO to attack the V-1 launch facilities with Tiny Tim 11.75" rockets.

When the breifing on the mission started he said:

That's the end of this briefing. As long as I'm in charge there'll never be a Marine in Europe

Great officer, even better SecState, but BIG blind spot.

RAF would have turned pale and ran for the facilities. The Corsair was... big boned (9,300 pound empty, even if you pull all the carrier capable gear off it will still come in at 8,7-800 pounds empty and around 12,000 pounds max). That was close to TWO Spitfires Mark VI fully loaded. When the American showed up with the P-47, which was a few hundred pounds heavier than the F4U, and told the British it was a fighter they were convinced that the U.S. was insane.
 

SsgtC

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Wasn't part of it that Marshall hated that the Marines seemed to fight the more celebrated actions in WWI and that several Army divisions were under the command of Marine Generals as well due to a lack of qualified Army officers?

 

Deleted member 1487

Key with Marshall was to keep any possible imaginable sign that there was ever a Marine in the room hidden. He despised the Corps (he felt that the Marines had "stolen all the glory" from the Army during WW II), even refused to consider allowing a half squadron of Marine Corsairs into the ETO to attack the V-1 launch facilities with Tiny Tim 11.75" rockets.

When the breifing on the mission started he said:



Great officer, even better SecState, but BIG blind spot.

RAF would have turned pale and ran for the facilities. The Corsair was... big boned (9,300 pound empty, even if you pull all the carrier capable gear off it will still come in at 8,7-800 pounds empty and around 12,000 pounds max). That was close to TWO Spitfires Mark VI fully loaded. When the American showed up with the P-47, which was a few hundred pounds heavier than the F4U, and told the British it was a fighter they were convinced that the U.S. was insane.
Sounds like the American option would still be an early Merlin-ed P-51, which is doable by mid-1942.
 

CalBear

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Sounds like the American option would still be an early Merlin-ed P-51, which is doable by mid-1942.
Huh?

CORSAIR

F4U

Already in combat approved and qualified operation. Need to plumb two wing hardpoints.

P-51 isn't going to happen that fast and the A-36 wasn't gonna feed the bull dog, not in mid 1942. The first Merlin equipped Mustang didn't fly until October of 1942. The aircraft DID NOT EXIST in mid-1942.

The ONLY reason the P-51, as we know it, even happened was because the Packard V-1650-Merlin was noticeably heavier than the Allison (1,650 pound vs 1,310) and it screwed up the center of gravity for the aircraft so they wound up stuffing an extra 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot because the scramble was on to find a long range escort.
 

CalBear

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Wasn't part of it that Marshall hated that the Marines seemed to fight the more celebrated actions in WWI and that several Army divisions were under the command of Marine Generals as well due to a lack of qualified Army officers?
The Marines did a hell of good job with the press. Perfect example is the Battle of Bella Wood. Almost everyone hears the name and thinks "Marines" and/or "Retreat, Hell! We just got here!"

There was ONE USMC Brigade attached to TWO Army divisions at the battle (along with both British and French elements). 30,000 American troops, less than 3,000 were Marines.

Who gets remembered?

Two/Five!

Pretty much everywhere both the MArines and Army operated the Marines got the better press. REALLY lit up just about every officer in the Army. Marshall never let it go.
 

SsgtC

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Very true! Us Devil Dogs always have been good with PR. Who else includes a battle in their hymn where they're entire contribution was 5 guys?

The Marines did a hell of good job with the press. Perfect example is the Battle of Bella Wood. Almost everyone hears the name and thinks "Marines" and/or "Retreat, Hell! We just got here!"

There was ONE USMC Brigade attached to TWO Army divisions at the battle (along with both British and French elements). 30,000 American troops, less than 3,000 were Marines.

Who gets remembered?

Two/Five!

Pretty much everywhere both the MArines and Army operated the Marines got the better press. REALLY lit up just about every officer in the Army. Marshall never let it go.
 

Deleted member 1487

Huh?

CORSAIR

F4U

Already in combat approved and qualified operation. Need to plumb two wing hardpoints.

P-51 isn't going to happen that fast and the A-36 wasn't gonna feed the bull dog, not in mid 1942. The first Merlin equipped Mustang didn't fly until October of 1942. The aircraft DID NOT EXIST in mid-1942.

The ONLY reason the P-51, as we know it, even happened was because the Packard V-1650-Merlin was noticeably heavier than the Allison (1,650 pound vs 1,310) and it screwed up the center of gravity for the aircraft so they wound up stuffing an extra 85 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot because the scramble was on to find a long range escort.
Did you not just say that Marshal wouldn't let Marines in Europe and it was a Marine aircraft? Not sure how the politics of that would work, what with the USAAF using a Marine/Navy carrier aircraft. Technically of course it was possible and available.

The P-51 with a Merlin could have entered service by late Autumn 1942 IF the choice had been made to focus on it instead of the Allison powered version. The first P-51s entered service with the RAF in January 1942, it was more a choice not to adapt them with Merlins until later, had they opted to focus on that instead of the Allison version theoretically it could have been an option in 1941, as Packard was already making Merlins by then and developing American elaborated versions. The P-51 after all was developed on request of the British, it would make sense to image a version developed with a British engine to ease the end user's logistics/training requirements.
 
The Marines did a hell of good job with the press. Perfect example is the Battle of Bella Wood. Almost everyone hears the name and thinks "Marines" and/or "Retreat, Hell! We just got here!"

There was ONE USMC Brigade attached to TWO Army divisions at the battle (along with both British and French elements). 30,000 American troops, less than 3,000 were Marines.

Who gets remembered?

Two/Five!

Pretty much everywhere both the MArines and Army operated the Marines got the better press. REALLY lit up just about every officer in the Army. Marshall never let it go.

Its the fault of the US Army for not allowing reporters to talk about specific units. The Marines had no such rule.

"Retreat Hell!" is pretty good as a line you have to admit.
 

CalBear

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Did you not just say that Marshal wouldn't let Marines in Europe and it was a Marine aircraft? Not sure how the politics of that would work, what with the USAAF using a Marine/Navy carrier aircraft. Technically of course it was possible and available.

The P-51 with a Merlin could have entered service by late Autumn 1942 IF the choice had been made to focus on it instead of the Allison powered version. The first P-51s entered service with the RAF in January 1942, it was more a choice not to adapt them with Merlins until later, had they opted to focus on that instead of the Allison version theoretically it could have been an option in 1941, as Packard was already making Merlins by then and developing American elaborated versions. The P-51 after all was developed on request of the British, it would make sense to image a version developed with a British engine to ease the end user's logistics/training requirements.
The F4U was a NAVY aircraft. The Marines got their greedy mitts on them because the Fleet could get the damned monsters deck qualified (took the FAA to finally figure that one out). As was noted, change the Alpha-Numeric (P-48 for the win, it appears) and keep repeating the terms Navy, Lt. Commander, and Ensign while avoiding Major and Colonel.
 
Did you not just say that Marshal wouldn't let Marines in Europe and it was a Marine aircraft? Not sure how the politics of that would work, what with the USAAF using a Marine/Navy carrier aircraft. Technically of course it was possible and available.

The P-51 with a Merlin could have entered service by late Autumn 1942 IF the choice had been made to focus on it instead of the Allison powered version. The first P-51s entered service with the RAF in January 1942, it was more a choice not to adapt them with Merlins until later, had they opted to focus on that instead of the Allison version theoretically it could have been an option in 1941, as Packard was already making Merlins by then and developing American elaborated versions. The P-51 after all was developed on request of the British, it would make sense to image a version developed with a British engine to ease the end user's logistics/training requirements.
I think what CalBear is saying is that the Corsair is the best short term solution. However, Marshall will take Marine Corps aircraft but he won't accept Marine pilots flying in the ETO or even training Army pilots. So if you want Corsairs flying out of England the AAF is going to cut it's own deal with Vought, take delivery of it's own F4Us and stand up it's own squadrons. It all sounds easy right? The catch is would Marshall do the right thing and sign off on Hap Arnold and the AAF getting the Corsair? It could happen but it all depends on the sales pitch. It has to look like the idea came from the Army Air Force.
On a side note Ernest King might complain that the Army just stole his airplane.
 
The F4U was a NAVY aircraft. The Marines got their greedy mitts on them because the Fleet could get the damned monsters deck qualified (took the FAA to finally figure that one out). As was noted, change the Alpha-Numeric (P-48 for the win, it appears) and keep repeating the terms Navy, Lt. Commander, and Ensign while avoiding Major and Colonel.
You got it backward. Avoid using Naval terms and keep using Army ranks as much as possible around Marshall.
The F4U was a hand me down from the Navy. The Navy went with plan B, the Hellcat. If the US Navy got a Corsair carrier qualified in 1942 you can bet the Marines would have still been flying Wildcats a while longer or they would have got the Hellcat first
 
I have a suggestion: the de Havilland DH. 98 Mosquito. Fit it with the Merlin 25 engine (1,610 bhp), armed with two Hispano 20 mm cannon in the ventral position and three 0.50 Browning machine guns in the nose. It'll certainly be a very effective long-range escort fighter.
 

CalBear

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I have a suggestion: the de Havilland DH. 98 Mosquito. Fit it with the Merlin 25 engine (1,610 bhp), armed with two Hispano 20 mm cannon in the ventral position and three 0.50 Browning machine guns in the nose. It'll certainly be a very effective long-range escort fighter.
The Mosquito was a fine Night-fighter, Reecee/photo platform, and intruder, but it was not, in any way, shape or form, a suitable platform to provide daylight escort. Single seat fighters would have torn it to bits (and did, when it was used in the roles I just mentioned, and caught in daytime). It was an excellent aircraft, but it was not an air superiority fighter.

The P-38, which was noticeably more nimble than the Mosquito was not considered to be "up to snuff" in the long range escort role, and has already been rejected by the OP as not meeting the requirements.
 
I had an idea (I think I might have shared previously?) for a 'Malta' Spitfire that could self deploy from Gib to Malta - and then once arrived on the island fit the guns ammo armour plate (which would have arrived by Submarine or fast Cruiser or Sunderland?) and 'air' the rear tank as it would not be used in ops.

I belive they actually did this, but not until after the situation was less critical. Biger oil tank and a ton of petrol.
 
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