AHC Cooperative End of Senguku

Try to create ideas for the clans Oda, Takeda, Ashikaga, and Tokugawa to dominate Japan together as allies with marriage ties.

We almost had one with Oda and Ashikaga, but Oda Nobunaga was too harsh on his puppet shogun I guess and got condemned by the 15th Ashikaga Shogun.

Ashikaga Yoshiteru was a very respected man that even Nobunaga played respect to. Perhaps if he lived, Oda Nobunaga might be content with "deputy shogun"

Oda Nobunaga must survive at least 3 years after his real death. Since he was said to be rude, that's going to be difficult since with a rude daimyo, that means the clan either is squished, or they dominate.

POD(s) must be after Battle of Okehazama

Can we do it?
 
It might as well be ASB, with all the difficulty envolved.

The Ashikaga were never in the position to exercise full control over Japan, they relied on their vassals and in particular the Kanto and Kansei Kanreis. The Most Yoshiteru could ever do was try to cultivate the Shogunate's influence, but he had to watch out for the Miyoshi clan who basically control the most accessible paths to Kyoto, basically encircling Yamashiro Province.

The problem with a POD after Okehazama is that the Oda and Tokugawa are pretty small, and Nobunaga was only able to gain power because he got lucky, by the time he started his conquests most of the major players were weak and easy picking with more momentum the Oda could gain. several years after Okehazama he invaded Mino ruled by the Saito clan, however by the time Nobunaga was preparing to march westward to the capital, the Miyoshi had fallen to civil war against their vassal Matsunaga Hisahide, after disposing of Yoshiteru. While the Tokugawa had marched east to seize Totomi Province the Takeda betrayed their former allies and seized Suruga province.

The Matsudaira/Tokugawa would inevitably get into conflict with the Takeda, Nobunaga himself was far beyond and iconoclastic that he did not care for the Shogun or its lack of power, which even the Miyoshi had kept in it's weakened state. The closest I can see to a cooperative end to the Sengoku is if somehow the Ashikaga expands the Kanrei system from Kanto and Kansai to include Kanrei's from Kyushu, Shikoku, Chugoku, Chibu(I don't know if that's period appropriate), and Tokohu. You cannot all of them survivial as influential powers on their own

The problems are one, how can the Shogunate survive when you have to keep it relevant which means somehow making the Miyoshi situation more stable, so it works. Two who wins out in the end in each. Nobunaga could not take on the Miyoshi as a whole with Nagayoshi as it's head if they were ever to fight, so I could see the Miyoshi having a firm grip on Kansai. The Mori could control Chugoku, Kyushu could end under the control of either the Otomo or Shimazu. Kanto was officially under the Nagao/Uesugi, but the Hojo really controlled the Kanto region or at least dominated it, and the Date could eventually consolidate their holdings in Tokohu.
 
I wonder if they could agree to a settlement where they are The Four Shoguns (exact divisions pending), with themselves (and the Emperor) forming a War Council. The agreement being that there are always Four Shoguns. Even if they expand, part of a post-war settlement would be the redivision of the Daiymo.

If they can be persuaded to accept that, they could be persuaded to invade Korea (show of trust/unity, none of them can invade each other if ALL their armies are abroad) - with them electing (with the Emperor) a commander for the expedition.

Assuming they don't get Admiral Yi'd, a post-war Korean Settlement could involve dividing the Kingdom under new Daimyo (stand out warriors, favoured sons, etc), leading to Daimyo on the Home Islands being redistributed to maintain the balance.
 
Well, I didn't say 4 shoguns. I meant kind of the 4 families being really powerful. Oda Nobunaga in OTL conducted an alliance with the soon-to-be Tokugawa Ieysu shortly after Okehazama. He also had great respect for Ashikaga Yoshiteru and payed respects to him, and in their 3 personal meetings they seemed to have a good personal relationship, out of character for the ambitious Nobunaga. I was thinking something like the different families working together to re-unite Japan under the Ashikaga Shogunate, with them gaining land at the expense of other daimyo. This can be either a puppet Shogunate (Nobunaga tried to set up a puppet shogun later in OTL) with the other 3 ruling and the Ashikaga only having power because of their personal lands or demesne (every dynamo has his personal estate) or one with the Shogun having real power with the other 3 families as close powerful advisors and supporters (as I said, Nobunaga himself respected Yoshiteru)
 
Well, I didn't say 4 shoguns. I meant kind of the 4 families being really powerful. Oda Nobunaga in OTL conducted an alliance with the soon-to-be Tokugawa Ieysu shortly after Okehazama. He also had great respect for Ashikaga Yoshiteru and payed respects to him, and in their 3 personal meetings they seemed to have a good personal relationship, out of character for the ambitious Nobunaga. I was thinking something like the different families working together to re-unite Japan under the Ashikaga Shogunate, with them gaining land at the expense of other daimyo. This can be either a puppet Shogunate (Nobunaga tried to set up a puppet shogun later in OTL) with the other 3 ruling and the Ashikaga only having power because of their personal lands or demesne (every dynamo has his personal estate) or one with the Shogun having real power with the other 3 families as close powerful advisors and supporters (as I said, Nobunaga himself respected Yoshiteru)

The problem there is now you have a Puppet Shogun with a Puppet Empire. The institutions have become a joke. As soon as one 'supporter' allies with the Shogun against the other two, it all falls apart as the Shogun and his ally both try and destroy the other two members - with the other Daimyo obliged to assist the Shogun.

However, 4 explicit equals is different. No institutional jokery - simple division of control, and a hierarchy that isn't institutionally rigged to fall apart.
 
Multiple Shoguns seem unlikely. The Shogun was appointed by the emperor alone, the closest you can get more powerful regional Kanrei or chancellors. The problem with going 4 families is that it leaves far too little in terms of all the potential powers and the 4 that are listed are western clans while nothing is done about the more eastern clans such as the Mori, Otomo, Shimazu, Chosokabe, and to some degree the Ukita. These Western clans are too close to one another to co-operate for the long term. The Post Okehazama, the Takeda was an established regional power, while the Oda and Tokugawa are nothing special at this point to merit a long lasting alliance. Besides that calls for a 3-way rule that just doesn't work out given the geography of each clan.

the only place for the Tokugawa to expand is east into Totomi Suruga against the Imagawa which they needed the Takeda's help with, with the Takeda taking Suruga.

As I want to point out again, time was lucky to Nobunaga in that had to deal with a weakened Saito, and divided Miyoshi when he finally started 7 or so years after Okehazama. Something that is not a guaranteed with a post-Okehazama POD.

The problem there is now you have a Puppet Shogun with a Puppet Empire. The institutions have become a joke. However, 4 explicit equals is different. No institutional jokery - simple division of control, and a hierarchy that isn't institutionally rigged to fall apart.

The problem with this is that the Ashikaga essentially started out so weak in terms of authority that their institutions were a joke, almost rigged to fall apart. The Ashikaga relied on the daimyo to keep order and even had special chancellors such as the Kanrei of Kanto and Kansai. These chancellors themselves were both rebellious and by the time of Okehazama fell to the same loss of power that the Shogunate had, the Kanto Chancellor of the Uesugi had to men of Nagao blood take over, while the Kansai Chancellor became irrelevant with the fall of the Hosokawa. This was simply because the Ashikaga had to have the support of various in their war to install usurpers against the line of Emperor Go-Daigo in the Nanbokucho period.

Saving the Ashikaga Shogunate, which is what this AHC is looking for is downright impossible. Nobunaga never cared for the Shogun, he may have respected Yoshiteru, but that doesn't mean someone like Nobunaga who had no respect for the social order would let the Shogunate if it didn't suit his purposes. Even then the Ashikaga would be just be trading another powerful Daimyo in Kansai over the Miyoshi and before them the Hosokawa. The Muromachi Shogunate was weak by design and only lasted as long as it did because of it.
 
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