AHC Conquistador Kingdoms in the New World

So in our timeline the european colonizers could establish direct control of the newly conquered or settled territory in America. Is there a possibility that at least some of the conquistadors become hereditary rulers of their colonys as vassals of the motherland? Like a Prince Hernan Cortes of Mexico or Lord William Penn of Pennsylvania thus establishing new dynasties in America. Is it even possible with 1492 as a start date or would an earlier discovery of the americas help?
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
I would be interested if the conquistadors established their own domains and told the mother country they were going independent.

It could lead to some interesting internecine war and politicking between Cortez and Narvez(I think IIRC) among others.

Though do get that dynamic you'd probably need to push the conquest back 200 years or so.
 
Had the King of Spain continued to refuse to recognize Cortez as governor of Mexico, due to his debacle with Narvaez, then we could have a situation where Cortez becomes a rogue army leader in the region, in, technically, a state of war with both the Spanish and the Aztecs.
 
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ar-pharazon

Banned
I wonder what would have happened if the Cortez had declared his own domain-could the Spanish crown have sent a large enough force to depose him?
 
I could see this working. If Cortez promises land and wealth for support, he can probably influence the locals into changing tactics, I. E. No more flower wars. If this is possible it might be able to hold off the Spanish due to guerilla tactics. This however would require him to be able to stay in control, which likely means no harsh Catholicising and keeping his army.
 
The inability to attract Spanish settlers and talent would doom an independent Cortez dynasty. IIRC while he was out conquering Mexico, Cuba was seeing 45 Spanish ships arriving per year. Guys like Cortez conquered the New World, but it took a large and steady injection of Spanish settlers backed by the crown to make it Hispanic.
 
So there is no chance of a rogue state in the americas but is there a chance that the office of governor of any spanish colony in america is made hereditary? Maybe Charles V actually making a Fugger the Duke of Venezuela or something like that in exchange for a lot of money.
 

Kaze

Banned
The option you are suggesting is much like the Crusader states that formed after the 1st Crusade, most of them were illegitimate until recognized by the pope. So what you need is a very inter-prizing Governor to take ship full of gold and instead sending it back to Spain, send it to Rome, the pope might look well on it and send a letter back saying "Thank you, prospective King of Mexico. Please, send another one - I might make your cousin cardinal." Legally, you are now "King of Mexico"- the problem is staying "King of Mexico", the Spanish might not take kindly to the upstart in the their neighborhood (much like the Byzantines did not take kindly to the establishment of the Crusader Sates). If you can defeat the Spanish in battle, they might see the wisdom to negotiate to allow you to stay as king if you give them an annual tribute of say 1/5th of the gold found. Say that you are all successful in all of this - getting the pope to recognize you, defeating the Spanish (with the tribute draining your royal coffers), you now have the headache of running your kingdom... good luck.
 
The option you are suggesting is much like the Crusader states that formed after the 1st Crusade, most of them were illegitimate until recognized by the pope. So what you need is a very inter-prizing Governor to take ship full of gold and instead sending it back to Spain, send it to Rome, the pope might look well on it and send a letter back saying "Thank you, prospective King of Mexico. Please, send another one - I might make your cousin cardinal."

Problem is that the gold needs to pass through the Gibraltar strait and Spain is one walk from intercepting the ships carrying gold.
 

Kaze

Banned
That is why your captain has to pretend to taking it to Spain, then change course so that you pass through Gibraltar quickly as possible. It is possible, you just have to have a loyal captain guiding the ship and a loyal crew manning it.
 
Problem is that the gold needs to pass through the Gibraltar strait and Spain is one walk from intercepting the ships carrying gold.
That is why your captain has to pretend to taking it to Spain, then change course so that you pass through Gibraltar quickly as possible. It is possible, you just have to have a loyal captain guiding the ship and a loyal crew manning it.

Or send to france, and play one against the other.
 
I actually thought about something like this a long time ago, and I think it's plausible. If there's anyone who wants to see a weakened Spain, it's basically all of Europe. Spain, with its armada, is powerful, but going against Cortez, or Pizzaro is going to be difficult because foreign powers are gonna want to support every Conquistador state possible. And if they can get a good export of Silver, and gold for help against Spain, it might be worth it. If Cortez and Pizzaro could do something, like drop Catholicism, and adopt Inca, and Aztec religions, they might be able to win local support. I think it's possible, but I'd like to know how many Conquistador states would exist, who would lead them, and their borders.
 
I actually thought about something like this a long time ago, and I think it's plausible. If there's anyone who wants to see a weakened Spain, it's basically all of Europe. Spain, with its armada, is powerful, but going against Cortez, or Pizzaro is going to be difficult because foreign powers are gonna want to support every Conquistador state possible. And if they can get a good export of Silver, and gold for help against Spain, it might be worth it. If Cortez and Pizzaro could do something, like drop Catholicism, and adopt Inca, and Aztec religions, they might be able to win local support. I think it's possible, but I'd like to know how many Conquistador states would exist, who would lead them, and their borders.

Would this end up resulting in the Conquistador states effectively becoming French or English client states, even colonies?
 
Would this end up resulting in the Conquistador states effectively becoming French or English client states, even colonies?

Only for a bit. While some might be French, or English allies, France, and England would sell equipment, and technology for modernization efforts of Mexico, Peru, Columbia, or Central America. They wouldn't need slave labor from the Natives, they could just employ regular workers for the job, and not to anger the Natives they now rule. They control a lot of money, and could use it for modernization, making them basically client states at the beginning, but over decades, becoming self-sufficient.
 
Only for a bit. While some might be French, or English allies, France, and England would sell equipment, and technology for modernization efforts of Mexico, Peru, Columbia, or Central America. They wouldn't need slave labor from the Natives, they could just employ regular workers for the job, and not to anger the Natives they now rule. They control a lot of money, and could use it for modernization, making them basically client states at the beginning, but over decades, becoming self-sufficient.
I suppose if they received roughly equal numbers of French and English colonists they could avoid either group gaining a clear enough majority to take over and deliver the land to a European monarch.
 
Columbus was basically a vassal of the Spanish Crown before he was deposed and imprisoned- so perhaps if succession is unbroken, Hispaniola might become a de facto hereditary tributary state of Spain ruled by the Columbus family? Perhaps it could even become a trend, with explorers getting a stake in the land and hereditary governorship over the land they discover.
 
I suppose if they received roughly equal numbers of French and English colonists they could avoid either group gaining a clear enough majority to take over and deliver the land to a European monarch.

But the Natives aren't gonna like many English and French settlers in the nation. I don't know why the English and French would take land they would have such a hard time getting. They'd have to fight each individual conquistador dynasty, and it could be assumed some type of Balkan league of protection from outside powers could occur among many for protection. France and Britan won't be colonizing the Conquistador states for awhile, especially if the Natives love the Conquistadors for modernizing the country, and making them stronger.
 
But the Natives aren't gonna like many English and French settlers in the nation. I don't know why the English and French would take land they would have such a hard time getting. They'd have to fight each individual conquistador dynasty, and it could be assumed some type of Balkan league of protection from outside powers could occur among many for protection. France and Britan won't be colonizing the Conquistador states for awhile, especially if the Natives love the Conquistadors for modernizing the country, and making them stronger.

Even if we hypothesize some fairly good-hearted Conquistadors (something of an oxymoron) the plagues they’ll bring with them are going to make modernized countries a rather dubious prospect and will probably be interpreted as a bad omen. Brutal conquistador warlords seem a lot more plausible to me than enlightened despots.
 
Even if we hypothesize some fairly good-hearted Conquistadors (something of an oxymoron) the plagues they’ll bring with them are going to make modernized countries a rather dubious prospect and will probably be interpreted as a bad omen. Brutal conquistador warlords seem a lot more plausible to me than enlightened despots.

What was the Native population post-disease in the Spanish regions? I think if they can get better technology early on, and especially farming equipment imported to the Americas, population increases will increase very quickly, and bounce back faster. A Warlord is what conquistadors will most likely be early on, but later down the line, they turn into empires, and dynasties who have stabilized over the decades.
 
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