AHC: Confucianism, Taoism, or Buddhism in the Roman Empire or Medieval Europe

Could Confucianism, Taoism, or Buddhism have become established in the Roman Empire or Early Middle Ages Europe, in at least some areas, in place of Christianity?
 

Marc

Donor
A Singapore friend argues that all successful states are naturally Confucian...
It's a striking thought, but putting that aside. Only Buddhism might gain appeal in the West - transformed and trans-mutated, as it became in Japan, under the Zen variation.
 
A Singapore friend argues that all successful states are naturally Confucian...
It's a striking thought, but putting that aside. Only Buddhism might gain appeal in the West - transformed and trans-mutated, as it became in Japan, under the Zen variation.
Zen isn't a syncretic sect though, is it? AFAIK Zen was an import from China (where it's called Chan Buddhism).
 
I think Confucianism has the best shot, as it can be interpreted as a philosophy of rulership rather than a religion. Confucius himself said that he had little to say about Heaven (beyond general advice to respect traditional rites), but only how to order affairs on Earth.

Here us my proposal for getting Confucianism to the West. First, get the Confucian classics translated into Persian, sent along the silk road, and purchased by a Seljuq bey with a scholarly inclination. Have the library of that Seljuq bey in the Levant get plundered by crusaders. It sits on an Outremer Lord's shelf until it's noticed by a monk proficient in Persian. He labors for years and finally finishes a translation in Latin, which is copied by other monks and sent off to Rome.

As good advice on rulership is in short supply in this era, the Classics are quickly in high demand, and within a few decades every well stocked library in Europe has a set. While this wouldn't displace Christianity, it would spread Confucian modes of thought and rulership all the way across Eurasia.
 
I've wondered if "Jesus" wasn't based on someone who went East for a while when he came back after they killed him another group later decided to elevate him to the status of a god. Just a working theory but if it's true, Roman Buddhism could have began in Judea.
 
Zen isn't a syncretic sect though, is it? AFAIK Zen was an import from China (where it's called Chan Buddhism).
This and, whilst Zen has somewhat become the face of Japanese Buddhism, it only became big 500 years on from the initial introduction and to this day is not the majority sect.
I think Confucianism has the best shot, as it can be interpreted as a philosophy of rulership rather than a religion. Confucius himself said that he had little to say about Heaven (beyond general advice to respect traditional rites), but only how to order affairs on Earth.

Here us my proposal for getting Confucianism to the West. First, get the Confucian classics translated into Persian, sent along the silk road, and purchased by a Seljuq bey with a scholarly inclination. Have the library of that Seljuq bey in the Levant get plundered by crusaders. It sits on an Outremer Lord's shelf until it's noticed by a monk proficient in Persian. He labors for years and finally finishes a translation in Latin, which is copied by other monks and sent off to Rome.

As good advice on rulership is in short supply in this era, the Classics are quickly in high demand, and within a few decades every well stocked library in Europe has a set. While this wouldn't displace Christianity, it would spread Confucian modes of thought and rulership all the way across Eurasia.
Confucianism, whilst useful, has next to 0 chance of becoming big in Rome.

Getting there is the first major issue.
Buddhism was a significant force along the silk road, so its arrival in rome was virtually guaranteed. It is a prosletysing faith, unlike confucianism which has no interest.
Once there, its going to be hard pressed to find itself making any ground when the most significant areas of the faith have a strong showing already in Stoicism.
 
Buddhism has the best chance simply because Confucianism and Daoism have both never spread outside East Asian peoples IRL. Meanwhile, Ashoka actually sent missionaries to the Hellenistic world, and an Indian monk named Zarmanochegas actually burnt himself to death during the reign of Augustus.

Also, it does seem maybe a little suspicious that Christian monasticism, which doesn't really have an obvious Hellenistic or Jewish antecedent, began in Egypt, which was the Roman Empire's gateway to India.
 
I've wondered if "Jesus" wasn't based on someone who went East for a while when he came back after they killed him another group later decided to elevate him to the status of a god. Just a working theory but if it's true, Roman Buddhism could have began in Judea.
Unfortunately this is only considered in the realms of pseudohistory.
The idea of similarities between the teachings of Jesus and eastern religions largely comes from a place of ignorance RE those religion. Buddhism for example in almost all areas may be the polar opposite of Christianity.

From the secular standpoint, its worth considering that Jesus was ultimately within the normal spheres of radical judaism in his day, and where he did differ was much closer to Hellenic Cynicism which just so happened to be at its height in the middle east.
 
Why would Confucianism be a non starter in Catholic Europe? Rome is a great place for it to be transmitted across the continent.

Edit: Oh, Peter confused Rome of the medieval era with SPQR. My suggestion was for the medieval era.
 
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Why would Confucianism be a non starter in Catholic Europe? Rome is a great place for it to be transmitted across the continent.

Edit: Oh, Peter confused Rome of the medieval era with SPQR. My suggestion was for the medieval era.
Whilst I did make the mistake, the Catholic church is going to make it way harder to import any foreign religion, particulalrly one which does not care about being spread in the first place.
 
Also, it does seem maybe a little suspicious that Christian monasticism, which doesn't really have an obvious Hellenistic or Jewish antecedent, began in Egypt, which was the Roman Empire's gateway to India.
Weren't the Essenes a Jewish predecessor to Christian monasticism? I don't really think that Buddhism inspiring monasticism really holds any water as a theory.
 
Whilst I did make the mistake, the Catholic church is going to make it way harder to import any foreign religion, particulalrly one which does not care about being spread in the first place.

I think that it could still grow in popularity and usage as a manual for wise rulership, especially when the New Learning movement takes off. If they pored over and adored the texts of ancient pagans like the Romans and Greeks, there's no reason they couldn't similarly value the wisdom of "Distant Cathay", and when Marco Polo writes about his journey, people will be even more curious.
 
I think that it could still grow in popularity and usage as a manual for wise rulership, especially when the New Learning movement takes off. If they pored over and adored the texts of ancient pagans like the Romans and Greeks, there's no reason they couldn't similarly value the wisdom of "Distant Cathay", and when Marco Polo writes about his journey, people will be even more curious.
There is a significant and OTL reason why the ancient pagan philosophers were accepted.
In short, there was something of a removal from blame for people considered to be born before, and thus unable to know, Christ and his message.

What this meant practically was a somewhat tacit understanding that they were so wise they would "naturally" have been Christian given the chance. This policy extended in the reverse to condemn various Islamic philosophers despite their clearly being the intellectual heirs to much of ancient greek philosophy.

To accepr confucianism, not only would the church be very, very aware that it is literally a pagan text (in regards to the Analects), but that its also from a contemporary religion that has practices that have been condemned as diabolical by popes (such as the deificatio of Emperors).
 
And yet Confucius himself was born before Christ, something they would also know, and thus could fall into the slot of "Virtuous Pagan." They would also know that the "Cathayan" people are distinct from the "Tatars" that they would be hearing about around the time the latin Wujing translations are making the rounds. Given their clear accomplishments in art and philosophy to anyone who's read the Wujing, they could be considered a fellow civilized people, oppressed by the barbarity of the Tatars, especially once it's known from Rabban Bar Sauma's visit that there ARE Christians among them. While it's not a sure thing, I think that all this would be strong arguments in favor of wanting to understand the Wujing for missionary purposes if nothing else, rather than condemn it outright. And once it gets established, it can spread through the networks of intellectuals growing throughout Europe.

Now, how you get a government governed directly along Confucian lines in Europe is a lot harder. The best I could imagine is a duchy in Italy or the HRE with a famous, accomplished leader fond of reading the classics and reciting Confucian parables to illustrate points. From there neighbors might acquire the texts to try and imitate themselves, and sooner or later you'll see Confucian concepts being woven into European texts.
 
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Unfortunately this is only considered in the realms of pseudohistory.
The idea of similarities between the teachings of Jesus and eastern religions largely comes from a place of ignorance RE those religion. Buddhism for example in almost all areas may be the polar opposite of Christianity.

From the secular standpoint, its worth considering that Jesus was ultimately within the normal spheres of radical judaism in his day, and where he did differ was much closer to Hellenic Cynicism which just so happened to be at its height in the middle east.


I don't think he ever at all truly existed. That's just my if he did theory.
 

Kaze

Banned
I've wondered if "Jesus" wasn't based on someone who went East for a while when he came back after they killed him another group later decided to elevate him to the status of a god. Just a working theory but if it's true, Roman Buddhism could have began in Judea.

There IS such a theory that suggests that Jesus in his missing years between his birth and ministry he traveled to India.

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As for Confucianism- it would take much more to implement. I would say introduce it in the early Republic where in you must pass the Scholar's exam in order to go through the course of honors.
 
Buddhism has the best chance, but it needs to flow westward from Greco-Bactria.

Rome did see mystery cults, Buddhism could be one of those if it gains enough of a foothold in Seleucid territory.
 

Philip

Donor
Weren't the Essenes a Jewish predecessor to Christian monasticism? I don't really think that Buddhism inspiring monasticism really holds any water as a theory.

Not really a direct predecessor, but they do demonstrate that asceticism in the region predates Christianity. Further, they are not the only such group, only the most famous.
 
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