AHC Confederate great power

using any pod(s) from 1840 on create a scenario in which the CSA is able to achieve independence with all claimed territory (the eleven otl rebel states ky, mo, md, ok, and confederate az) bonus points if they can expand. This independent CSA needs to be considered a great power by 1918.
 
Yeah, Maryland is simply ASB. That would entail ceding Washington to the Confederacy, something not even the most delusional Copperhead would ever have done. That isn't even touching the rest of that stuff. Getting past the peace treaty, their government was too dysfunctional, and their territory too lacking in resources to rise to Great Power status, and that isn't even accounting for the fact that almost half of their population would have been slaves by 1918. There's just way too much wrong with the CSA for it to have righted itself, and its ruling class wasn't interesting in trying. And even if it did, I just don't think the American South alone had the latent potential to be a Great Power.
 
This is nigh impossible - there is no chance the CSA will get a peace in which it also gets what it wants (it would be a negotiated peace in which the CSA likely surrenders some territory), and beyond that, it's mostly an agricultural backwater - and proud of its status as such - so I don't know how this is possible.
 

Rhand

Banned
A Union general successfully mounts a putsch and takes over Washington D.C. and dismantles the civilian government, thus plunging the United States into internal turmoil and letting the CSA get a favorable peace settlement.

It's pretty much ASB, but it's the only possible solution.
 
Even winning the civil war would be pretty difficult. And surviving would be quiet difficult. Economy system of CSA wasn't viable and many nations wouldn't want act with slavery nation. And has Southern States even any kind of resources which could help that even if CSA would reform itself enough? Texas has oil but it hardly is enough and it is pretty possible that Texas would secede.
 
It would basically require the CSA to roll a lot of straight sixes for a long time. Winning the civil war intact, then getting a grace period -and the right political constellations- for actually organizing a successful state, managing to improve relations with the US enough to ensure a stable peace - and then they'd still have to do a complete turnaround in most of their policies and reform, reform, reform.
 
From 1840? Well theoretically with 20 years to work with you could get Kentucky and the southern bit of Missouri into the fold, and with a POD 20 years in the past I can see someone more competent being assigned to Arizona so maybe they get that too.

Still getting the CSA as a great power is bloody hard. They would have a better jumping off point maybe, but they're still a slave state which would have probably incurred a considerable war debt. They'd be lucky to be a regional power, let alone a great power.
 
A Union general successfully mounts a putsch and takes over Washington D.C. and dismantles the civilian government, thus plunging the United States into internal turmoil and letting the CSA get a favorable peace settlement.

It's pretty much ASB, but it's the only possible solution.

That only gets them independent. It doesn't solve the oodles of internal problems, or lack of resources and industry.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
This is probably nutso, but...

CSA gains independence in earlier civil war where advantage is more to their side than the Union.
Union political situation is not great, they have a run of bad luck and splinter.
CSA expands somewhat in the aftermath of this, mainly into the west.
Slavery doesn't go away, but becomes both less important and more legally restricted - the codes for treatment of slaves become both more stringent and better enforced, and possibly they're even mandated to be paid a pittance for work. (Probably not though.)
CSA becomes hegemon over most of OTL US and some points south, and gets lucky with an earlier than OTL oil boom.


...that work?
 
one way I was thinking of them becoming a great power would be a MUCH worse WWI in which minor power CSA sits out, with everyone else very heavily damaged and the CSA totally intact great power by default
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The rebel states are as likely to become a

using any pod(s) from 1840 on create a scenario in which the CSA is able to achieve independence with all claimed territory (the eleven otl rebel states ky, mo, md, ok, and confederate az) bonus points if they can expand. This independent CSA needs to be considered a great power by 1918.

The rebel states are about as likely to become a great power in the Nineteenth (or Twentieth) Century as Ireland is...:rolleyes:

The population of the seceding states totaled ~9 million in 1860, including ~3 million enslaved; Ireland had roughly 8 million pre-famine.

Do the math.

Best,
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Actually, in terms of poor Anglosphere "nations" with

By pure population size then China conquers the world in the 19th century, surely? Or would it be India?

Actually, in terms of poor Anglosphere "nations" with a predominately agricultural economy, Ireland in 1840 is about as close to the US south as one can get...;)

Scotland and the various settler colonies are too small, Britain and the US are too large.

So - rebels = Irish without slaves. Spiffy uniforms, too, for the "manly men in gray" worshippers.

Makes about as much sense as the OP.

Best,
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I like the "Anglosphere" slipped in there.

Incidentally if population is what wins then one should probably look at... well... 1776 is the easiest example, actually. That involved a smaller population successfully revolting against a larger one due to local support.
Heck, 1917 is that going on.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, what would you prefer?

I like the "Anglosphere" slipped in there.

Incidentally if population is what wins then one should probably look at... well... 1776 is the easiest example, actually. That involved a smaller population successfully revolting against a larger one due to local support.
Heck, 1917 is that going on.

Well, what would you prefer? The UK/Ireland and the US/southern US have more in common then, say, the US/southern US and Germany/Bavaria...

Ah, yes, and the difference in 1776 is the "rebels" were 3,000 miles away across the bounding main.

Not quite the same as the distances involved in 1861-65.

Best,
 
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