From what I understand the French Third Republic was rather unpopular during its history and I've been veiwing some ideas in which it collapses earlier than OTL. My challenge is to collapse the French Third Republic before 1900 and replace it with a Fourth Republic more akin to the First Republic regards to following Enlightenment based ideals.
AHC: Collapse the French Third Republic and replace it with another Enlightenment
- Thread starter SPJ
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which of the First Republic's governments? I can see a communist government in France that looks a hell of a lot like the Reign of Terror
Not any one government specificaly. Simply make this Fourth Republic more focused on Enlightment ideals which are what spurned the creation of the First Republic.
Alex Richards
Donor
That's such a vague statement that it's essentially useless.
Promotion of arts and sciences was definately underway in the Third Republic, probably more so than the First.
Dechristianisation would have required a communist takeover and would also have been phenomenally unpopular.
The Third Republic was arguably more democratic than the First, particularly after 1875 when the monarchists were voted out.
Do you want the whole 'execute anyone rich/vaguely priviledged' situation?
Promotion of arts and sciences was definately underway in the Third Republic, probably more so than the First.
Dechristianisation would have required a communist takeover and would also have been phenomenally unpopular.
The Third Republic was arguably more democratic than the First, particularly after 1875 when the monarchists were voted out.
Do you want the whole 'execute anyone rich/vaguely priviledged' situation?
fine the Committee of Public Safety, that was a form of government that governed through the reign of terror
Made accurate statements? Military geniuses don't see their homeland turned into Poland.
Sorry for being vague. I'm still new to French history and I guess you have a greater understanding than I do. I was basically hoping to find ideas to make a TL with a more powerful France by creating of a more secular government which gives greater support and funding to scientific advances than OTL and perhaps alsointroduces more Democratic ideals. This was probably already done or at least attempted in OTL but like I said I'm still a novice so please let me know what you know.
Alright calm down we don't want to get off topic and start a flame war.
Well, kind of divergent from the OP, but there are a few ways to collapse the Troisième République and replace it with another REACTION. For example, in the late 1890s, the state had to deal with both the affaire Dreyfus, and a political crisis after the death of president Félix Faure in Feb. 1899. During his funeral, reactionary / revanchist politician Paul Déroulède sought to instigate a coup against the Third Republic, centered around his political group, the Ligue des patriotes (League of Patriots, an organization which had become anti-republican, xenophic and antisemitic after its creation), which had supported General Boulanger's populist movement earlier in the decade...
Before the funeral of President Faure, Déroulède sought the support of two prominent generals - Gauderique Roget and Georges de Pellieux, who was the opponent of Alfred Dreyfus and Emile Zola in the affaire Dreyfus - in staging a military coup. The date was set for 23 feb 1899... but Pellieux lost his nerve at the last minute and bowed out, which led to Déroulède literally begging Gen. Roget to march on L'Elysee and instigate the coup. Roget remained loyal to the Republic, and the coup failed. Déroulède was arrested, and that was that.
There are a few interesting possible outcomes of these events. The first is the most obvious - Georges de Pellieux goes all in on the coup attempt, and Roget does not back down. The Republic falls, to be replaced with a more authoritarian state (yet still republican- Déroulède was opposed to the Orléanistes and the Bonapartes, though less the latter than the former) based on a more conservative state / watered-down 2nd Empire, with a weak parliament and a strong president elected by universal suffrage.
Another possibility is that, even if Pellieux backs out, Roget and Déroulède go ahead with the coup. It fails miserably, and upon arrest Roget claims that he was innocent the whole time and M. Déroulède made him do it... but the republic is still thrown into chaos, and both the Bonapartistes and the Orléanists rally in support of Victor Napoléon and Prince Philippe d’Orléans, respectively, to restore either a Third Empire or a ... second "July Monarchy"?... and if it comes to this, my money is on the Orléanistes, as the Bonapartisans (
) were too timid after the fall of Napoléon III, so would probably cede the initiative to the bolder supporters of Prince Philippe. After all, this is all going to go down in a matter of hours: 23 Feb 1899, General Roget and Déroulède march on Parliament, throwing the government into disorder. By the 24th or 25th, someone is going to be sitting in l'Élysée, either as provisional President of the Republic, or provisional Chief of State of a restored monarchy.
And things go downhill from there... (btw, most of this is from memory, referencing a JSTOR article called "'La République en danger'? The Pretenders, the Army and Déroulède, 1898-1899" by Maurice Larkin... if you're into that sort of thing.)
Before the funeral of President Faure, Déroulède sought the support of two prominent generals - Gauderique Roget and Georges de Pellieux, who was the opponent of Alfred Dreyfus and Emile Zola in the affaire Dreyfus - in staging a military coup. The date was set for 23 feb 1899... but Pellieux lost his nerve at the last minute and bowed out, which led to Déroulède literally begging Gen. Roget to march on L'Elysee and instigate the coup. Roget remained loyal to the Republic, and the coup failed. Déroulède was arrested, and that was that.
There are a few interesting possible outcomes of these events. The first is the most obvious - Georges de Pellieux goes all in on the coup attempt, and Roget does not back down. The Republic falls, to be replaced with a more authoritarian state (yet still republican- Déroulède was opposed to the Orléanistes and the Bonapartes, though less the latter than the former) based on a more conservative state / watered-down 2nd Empire, with a weak parliament and a strong president elected by universal suffrage.
Another possibility is that, even if Pellieux backs out, Roget and Déroulède go ahead with the coup. It fails miserably, and upon arrest Roget claims that he was innocent the whole time and M. Déroulède made him do it... but the republic is still thrown into chaos, and both the Bonapartistes and the Orléanists rally in support of Victor Napoléon and Prince Philippe d’Orléans, respectively, to restore either a Third Empire or a ... second "July Monarchy"?... and if it comes to this, my money is on the Orléanistes, as the Bonapartisans (
) were too timid after the fall of Napoléon III, so would probably cede the initiative to the bolder supporters of Prince Philippe. After all, this is all going to go down in a matter of hours: 23 Feb 1899, General Roget and Déroulède march on Parliament, throwing the government into disorder. By the 24th or 25th, someone is going to be sitting in l'Élysée, either as provisional President of the Republic, or provisional Chief of State of a restored monarchy.And things go downhill from there... (btw, most of this is from memory, referencing a JSTOR article called "'La République en danger'? The Pretenders, the Army and Déroulède, 1898-1899" by Maurice Larkin... if you're into that sort of thing.)
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Alex Richards
Donor
Consider this:
Since the French Revolution toppled the Monarchy, the Third Republic has been the longest period without a major political change. The 5th Republic still has about another 30 years to go to match it.
Since the French Revolution toppled the Monarchy, the Third Republic has been the longest period without a major political change. The 5th Republic still has about another 30 years to go to match it.
Well, the Third Republic did move significantly to the left and anticlericalism (if that's what you have in mind) from about 1904. Whether that was a particularly good thing is less clear. What specifically do you see your "Fourth" Republic doing that the Third one didn't?
Well I was hoping to have a government that would better prepare France militarily for WW1, be less anti-semetic (which could help avoid some of the problems of the Dreyfus affair), and respected the rights of the inhabitants in its colonies (perhaps by making all of them citizens).
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Trouble is the first two are probably contradictory. The first requires the army, and by implication the political right, to be stronger. The second requires them to be weaker, since antisemitism was strongest among those elements. Either change is possible by itself, but combining the two would be very tricky.
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Yeah they there was a deadlock between the Legitimist and Orleanist.
The Legitimist candidate was a old fart who wanted the ancien regime back he even refused the tricolor flag fortunately he has no heir meaning when he died the Legitimist and Orleanist claim merged but it was too late since the assembly nationnal no longuer had a monarchist majority. If the count of Chambort die early we could see the instoration of a constitutional monarchy in France. What would be the effect on WWI (if it happend as per OTL) is anyone guess. But that would be an interesting story.
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