AHC: Codominion in 1990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDominium_(book_series)

In the early books of the series (written in the 1970th) the CoDominium was founded in 1990, after a "second cold war". Author Jerry Pournelle said, that he believed that such a development was plausible at this time. Okay, IOTL we had a second cold war after 1979 and 1990 the cold war ended, but in a differnt way Pournelle immagined. But how we have to change history to get the CoDominium in 1990, instead the collapse of the USSR. POD shouldn´t be before 1975.

P.S.: This isn´t a AHC for ASB-element like FTL-travel. Its just about the CoDominium.
 

Incognito

Banned
A though one. I’m not aware of any historical precedence of superpowers at their peak putting aside their differences and making a lasting alliance…
 

DISSIDENT

Banned
It was proposed by the Soviet ambassador in the 1970s. Codominion was the exact word used by the Soviets in the proposal, which was basically what Pournelle said it would be, the US and USSR divide the world between them and support one another in dominating their vassal nations. Nixon or some other state department staffer said no.

Have them say yes, and Falkenberg will be taking the Alderson Point to Sparta and then eventually humanity will have to deal with the Moties further down the line.
 
It was proposed by the Soviet ambassador in the 1970s. Codominion was the exact word used by the Soviets in the proposal, which was basically what Pournelle said it would be, the US and USSR divide the world between them and support one another in dominating their vassal nations. Nixon or some other state department staffer said no.

Have them say yes, and Falkenberg will be taking the Alderson Point to Sparta and then eventually humanity will have to deal with the Moties further down the line.

That whole series of novels is a big favorite of mine and I periodically read them again from beginning to end. That said, I think Pournelle (like most observers at the time of writing and well into the 1980s) assumed that the Soviet Union was internally stronger that it turned out to be. The mutual suspecion was very strong between both the US and Soviet Union, so close cooperation between them would be tough. However, both the Soviet Union and US benefited from the Cold War in that it was predicatable (certainly the last 3 decades have been anything but), and a commonality of interests did exist between the two powers to maintain stability. So if a working partnership based on that commonality of interests could be forged (a tough one), than it might last a while.. possibily even the centuries postulated in the CoDominion series of books.

Although the US never had the level of control over its allies that the Soviets did over their client states. For one thing, if the US had, the French would never have been permitted to pull out of NATO, and the polite fiction that the US Navy did not carry nuclear weapons while in Japanese waters would have never existed either.

Jump drive (Alderson drive) would sure be nice though...
 
That whole series of novels is a big favorite of mine and I periodically read them again from beginning to end. That said, I think Pournelle (like most observers at the time of writing and well into the 1980s) assumed that the Soviet Union was internally stronger that it turned out to be. The mutual suspecion was very strong between both the US and Soviet Union, so close cooperation between them would be tough. However, both the Soviet Union and US benefited from the Cold War in that it was predicatable (certainly the last 3 decades have been anything but), and a commonality of interests did exist between the two powers to maintain stability. So if a working partnership based on that commonality of interests could be forged (a tough one), than it might last a while.. possibily even the centuries postulated in the CoDominion series of books.

Although the US never had the level of control over its allies that the Soviets did over their client states. For one thing, if the US had, the French would never have been permitted to pull out of NATO, and the polite fiction that the US Navy did not carry nuclear weapons while in Japanese waters would have never existed either.

Jump drive (Alderson drive) would sure be nice though...

I think think it is pretty much understood that if the Soviets DID invade Germany and it didn't instantly lead to all out nuclear war France would very quickly get back into NATO. It would have been suicide for them to do otherwise.
 
The most important fact of the first half of the Twentieth Century is that the United States and England both speak English. The most important fact of the second half will be that the dominant race in both the United States and the Soviet Union is white.
Herman Kahn, 1960
The above quote is one of the inspirations for the CoDo series. If you work on it, maybe you make the CoDominium seem more plausible. Maybe have a more viable and aggressive set of neutrals? Maybe have some more active terrorist movements in the US and Russia by third-world, non-white, and/or non-Western populations that bring them emotionally closer together and inspire sympathy for each other? Plus get rid of the cheap 1980s oil that made America feel more confident and hurt the USSR.​
 
Bruce did a scenario on this a while back. How he set it up was that:
A) France actually goes fascist after the political chaos of the early 60s and tries even harder to keep it's empire and build an independent bloc.
B) China goes Kim Jonj-Il-style crazy, with the difference being a far larger country with nukes.
C) Islamic terrorism. Lots of it.
So, if these sort of scenarios came to pass, the United States and the Soviet Union would probably cooperate to keep all these other powers, clearly a danger to world peace, down and isolated where need be. That sort of scenario could lay the groundwork for future cooperation.
 
I think think it is pretty much understood that if the Soviets DID invade Germany and it didn't instantly lead to all out nuclear war France would very quickly get back into NATO. It would have been suicide for them to do otherwise.

that was assumed during the 70s and 80s as far as I can tell. Certainly I hoped so, otherwise NATO was going to have a pretty hard time because of the relatively shallow logistics depth otherwise (resupply ports are too close to the front without France), not to mention it would cost Central Front a couple of corps and several divisions as well as significant air power reserves.

My point is that politically France pulling out of NATO is not something a US government that 'controlled' its allies would allow. In some ways NATO was like herding cats, and still kind of is.
 
that was assumed during the 70s and 80s as far as I can tell. Certainly I hoped so, otherwise NATO was going to have a pretty hard time because of the relatively shallow logistics depth otherwise (resupply ports are too close to the front without France), not to mention it would cost Central Front a couple of corps and several divisions as well as significant air power reserves.

My point is that politically France pulling out of NATO is not something a US government that 'controlled' its allies would allow. In some ways NATO was like herding cats, and still kind of is.


They would have to be competely moronic not to. They would be next on the chopping block when West Germany fell and they knew it.
 
Late 60s, the USSR asked for US acquiesence to take out the Chinese nuclear program.

The US said no.

Have the US say yes. There's the starting point. Part of the quidpro quo, the USSR agrees to keep N.Vietnam in check, and to stop sponsoring communist movements in the Americas (except of course Cuba).

Side effect of the USSR/China war: The world is a bit unstable, and starts going to shit.

USSR does however eventually crush China as an independent major power. The nominal ruling group is by a pro-Soviet faction, but control over the whole country remains tenuous.

There's an Arab/Israel war in the early 70s (like 1973). The US and USSR cooperate to keep the war under control, but OPEC produces an oil boycott of the West.

The US invades Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to capture the oil wells (this was actually proposed in OTL) but a lot of them get destroyed. Oil price rockets. Economic crisis in Europe especially. US unemployment exceeds 25%. Beginnings of legal separation of "taxpayers" from "citizens".

22nd Amendment repealed.

Meanwhile in Vietnam, the USSR and US impose a peace. The South under the US, the North under the USSR.

And in Europe, the economic crisis causes instability. Rightwing authoritarian regimes come to power in Italy, France, and Britain through coups or other means. Portugal has its revolution freeing the colonies, but the USSR acquiesces when the US intervenes to stop the revolution turning communist (a fear in OTL). The Portuguese colonies are freed and drift towards the USSR (as in OTL).... The US forces S. Africa to accept the new Marxist regime in Luanda, and acquiesces in the USSR invading Romania....

Helsinki Accord 1975 is signed by President Nixon. Contains no human rights stipulations. Formalises boundaries in Europe as final, defines non-interference in worldwide spheres of influences, and establishes first formal US-USSR institutions (beginnings of CoDominium Senate).

October 1975: President Nixon signs SALT III, which includes a term by which US and USSR impose nuclear weapons ban on all other states. SALT IV negotiations begin...
 
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