With a POD after 1852, have Algeria and Tunisia become Christian Majority nations. Bonus if they can become part a the EU of a EU like organisation based in Europe.
AHC: Christian Algeria and Tunisia
- Thread starter PulkitNahata
- Start date
Have Italy get Tunisia and promote extensive settlement there, maybe as a solution to solving the Southern Question or something. Then have some indigenous resistance and get it cracked down on HARSHLY, like Fascist Italy-style harsh. Hell, it could be Fascist Italy doing the cracking down. Have it be kept to this current day as an integral part of Italy. It should have a Christian majority.
Algeria's kinda tricky, though. The easiest way is to redefine the definition of Algeria to include just Oran, Constantine, and Algiers departments. Obviously get French control well-established as soon as possible and have development be a driving concern of the Second Empire/Third Republic. Make settlement even easier for the French who want to move there. Make it easy for any European--French, German, Italian, whoever, to move to Algeria. But even that wouldn't be enough, I think, so you'd more have to have some far-right regime ethnically cleanse the place during an attempted Algerian War of Independence in the decolonisation era. They could replace the Muslim labour force with Christian Africans, but it isn't like any far-right group in France ever held particularly positive views on blacks and would want them moving to a place that is an integral part of France (which those regions were at one point considered, I believe, or easily could be). You could just have mass Christian African immigration to those parts of Algeria to make Christian Algeria, but again, the French wouldn't ever want that, even a non-far-right regime.
Algeria's kinda tricky, though. The easiest way is to redefine the definition of Algeria to include just Oran, Constantine, and Algiers departments. Obviously get French control well-established as soon as possible and have development be a driving concern of the Second Empire/Third Republic. Make settlement even easier for the French who want to move there. Make it easy for any European--French, German, Italian, whoever, to move to Algeria. But even that wouldn't be enough, I think, so you'd more have to have some far-right regime ethnically cleanse the place during an attempted Algerian War of Independence in the decolonisation era. They could replace the Muslim labour force with Christian Africans, but it isn't like any far-right group in France ever held particularly positive views on blacks and would want them moving to a place that is an integral part of France (which those regions were at one point considered, I believe, or easily could be). You could just have mass Christian African immigration to those parts of Algeria to make Christian Algeria, but again, the French wouldn't ever want that, even a non-far-right regime.
What about converting the local Muslim population in these areas? Is that a possibility?
Not really, since the people doing the converting are doing the colonisation and oppression. The only way might be to somehow get an evangelical Protestant group to have some huge manner of success and get their Protestant sect linked with anticolonialism (like in Korea), but I'm highly doubtful that could even get started (Korea had very specific reasons for why Christianity got so big), and even if it worked, well, would it actually put Christians in the majority? They aren't in South Korea (and growth has slowed in recent years), so why would they be in North Africa?
Bottom line is, Muslim cultures are very resistant to conversion.
Well all Empires in history worked that way, so how did it come that the Romans assimilated somewhat the region and later the Arab also did to some extent? What can you do to remove the disadvantage France had?
Post 1850, you need to remove scientific racism from the European / French mindset.
Conversion is appealing if you get to become an equal member of the Empire with full rights once you converted. If there`s a barrier against that, conversion will be unappealing.
Now of course conversions without appeal happened, too, e.g. among the indigenous populations in the Americas, but usually entrenched civilizations put up considerable resistance, and that´s the case with Muslim Maghrebinians.
Even this can be overcome, of course, but only if France dedicates a lot of resources on the goal, which is not in and by itself plausible unless you change something fundamental.
Like, for example, in Reydan`s timeline "Spectre of Europe", where a Royalist France is reduced to the African possessions after the Commune has taken over France. In such a scenario, a majority or at least near-majority Christian Algeria looks somewhat plausible.
But I thought there were ways for autochtonous Algerians to climb the ladder, apparently from renouncing to their religion (or maybe just the political part of it?), so you would basically need to make those system more popular and attractive.
I'm pretty sure that "culture", "religion", "ethnicity", and "nationality" meant different things and were applied differently in the 19th century compared to Roman or early Arab times. I can't really say how, I'm just certain it has to exist based on what we see and don't see in history.
But one thing that's always a hassle is the fact that one reason why Islamic cultures are resistant to conversion is the penalties up to and including death for apostasy specified in various literature. That means imposing religion from the top-down, especially in the 19th century, is next to impossible.
How, though? It seems like an awesome offer--reject your culture and embrace Frenchness and get all the benefits that comes with, and that's more than, say, Britain offered in their colonies, but that was evidently not an option for the vast majority of people in Algeria or anywhere else in French Africa based on how few people ever took advantage of that.
Well, the Arabs did it essentially by taxing non-Muslims more. Maybe a reverse jizya could help boost Muslim-to-Christian conversion rates in French Algeria.
The problem is we have like only a couple decades vis the centuries of being under jizya, jannissaries etc
Surely it does, but I would not think that the assimilation didn´t happen becase the locals were particularly resistant, I would rather check what the French did or did not.
But Tatars in Russia did Christianize, at least relevant numbers did. There is surely a way to breakd internal laws.
Not many Tatars did, since they're the most prominent Muslim group in Russia. Plus those that did did so over the course of centuries, and some might already have been Christian to some extent (because of Christianity amongst the steppe tribes that formed the Tatars). Here, we have about 160 years to do far more than Russia (and its ever religiously tolerant) failed to do, with a group in which the social situation and historical background definitely isn't favouring the establishment of even a minority, much less the size you'd need to make Christianity be a majority in their home country.
Much like with the those of the Barbary Coast, there is also probably the issue of their Christian neighbors being angry at the centuries of enslaving them.
Honestly? I think we're looking at some really dark stuff here. Like convert or the ghetto. Short of that probably some sort of religious population exchange could work. Negotiations with Egypt to exchange their Christian population for the local Islamic population.
Alternatively, set up settlement camps backed by a settler ideology, alongside desert improvement schemes, using local criminals as slave labor, and start increasing punishments - if you commit theft, you and your immediate family are enslaved as punishment - it would either rapidly reduce crime, or rapidly grow a slave population that could be easily abused - such as by digging a massive canal system from Tunisia out west, with little regard to the health of the workers.
Alternatively, set up settlement camps backed by a settler ideology, alongside desert improvement schemes, using local criminals as slave labor, and start increasing punishments - if you commit theft, you and your immediate family are enslaved as punishment - it would either rapidly reduce crime, or rapidly grow a slave population that could be easily abused - such as by digging a massive canal system from Tunisia out west, with little regard to the health of the workers.
Agreed. There is no way Algeria becomes Christian without some major bloodshed or population displacement.
The French realised that as well as the potential tensions and actually forbade proselytising the Muslim populations
TheSlovakPatriot
Banned
Algeria :
Option one: partition of Algeria. Coastal west a Pied noir state, east and interior however stays muslim.
option two:
Huge Spanish and French immigration. Send in anyone-deserters who would otherwise face death etc.
and give bonuses to those natives who decide to convert ( like half tax reduction , new property for free etc. )
Tunisia would be more tricky, having Libya become Italian is easier ( at one point Italians were 10%). Avoid WW2 or Italian participation there, and boost emigration from Italy and by 1955 you get 30% Italians. Maybe Italy will revoke Fezzan and possibly even Cyrenaica. Achieving Italian majority in Tripolitania is plausible
Option one: partition of Algeria. Coastal west a Pied noir state, east and interior however stays muslim.
option two:
Huge Spanish and French immigration. Send in anyone-deserters who would otherwise face death etc.
and give bonuses to those natives who decide to convert ( like half tax reduction , new property for free etc. )
Tunisia would be more tricky, having Libya become Italian is easier ( at one point Italians were 10%). Avoid WW2 or Italian participation there, and boost emigration from Italy and by 1955 you get 30% Italians. Maybe Italy will revoke Fezzan and possibly even Cyrenaica. Achieving Italian majority in Tripolitania is plausible
1852 is a very late POD to accomplish this.
The major reason it is so hard to accomplish isn't the starting point of Muslim population. It is the increase in population due to 1) improved health care as a result of French occupation, and 2) huge birth rate. If infant and child mortality remained high or birth control introduced, then a combination of Christian immigration and some conversion might achieve that. But I don't think it's realistic to keep Muslim population growth at a low level. It is really against the tenor of the times.
The major reason it is so hard to accomplish isn't the starting point of Muslim population. It is the increase in population due to 1) improved health care as a result of French occupation, and 2) huge birth rate. If infant and child mortality remained high or birth control introduced, then a combination of Christian immigration and some conversion might achieve that. But I don't think it's realistic to keep Muslim population growth at a low level. It is really against the tenor of the times.
Maybe have the old Victorian ideas of the Sahara Sea where a lot of the depressions in the desert that are below sea level could be flooded with canals or something. Then have Italy send settlers and colonists there that would grow into a ruling class and after introducing alcohol into the population it shouldn't be too hard to get the natives away from Islam (and yes, many have left Islam simply because Jesus lets you drink booze).
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
This is very hard to do in the 19th century considering that there are more hospitable and welcoming environments for Italian and Spanish emigrants in the Americas. North Africa is very warm and full of hostile natives - your best bet is to encourage conversions and cultural assimilation amongst the local Arabs and Berbers.
Costs a huge amount of money for comparatively minor gain. The land itself isn't really worth colonising (for Europeans), more just extracting resources out of. Not really a cost efficient nor reasonable way to attract settlers.
The alcohol issue is...no, just no. France reintroduced the wine industry to North Africa to make all sorts of stuff. North Africans weren't quite like Native Americans, when all had a clue of what alcohol was, and all wanted to avoid it, besides the people who didn't, who just say "ah well, Allah will forgive me." Seriously, there's tons of Muslims out there who drink, and drink often. Just because Islam says it's bad doesn't mean Muslims now and then (Ottoman sultan "Selim the Sot", name says it all) won't indulge in it if they want to.