AHC: Chinese colonisation of Central Asia

With a POD in the rise of the Yuan dynasty, make at least 10% of the Central Asian population Chinese. (They do not need to have been taken over by a Chinese dynasty.) Bonus if they become Chinese majority.
A reason why I believe this possible is partly because of the Silk(and the general trans-Eurasian) Trade route and further because of the possible Chinese interests in controlling that route.
 
Hadn't China directly controlled eastern parts of what is today Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan in its history? I already remember them having tributary lands as far west as the Caspian, but I don't know the reliability on that.

Depending on how you define Central Asia, China's already halfway there with East Turkestan, Tibet, and its historical lands even further west. One problem that immediately comes to mind is the nomadic natives all around the area that would be a major threat to Chinese authority and any Chinese nationals who moved to the region. They would either have to be contained in some way, or perhaps the government sends settlers to the area as a measure to try and contain them?
 
Chinese forces win the Battle of Talas in 751 AD against the Muslim forces and check their expansion into Central Asia. Instead of Persianization the region undergoes Sinocization, lasting half a millennium until Mongol hordes decimate the region. Lasting influences on a lingual and architectural scale are seen even today, prior to Russification hybrid Sino-Turkish languages dominated the region even in the Imperial court of the 'True Emperor of the World' out of Samarkand.
 
Chinese forces win the Battle of Talas in 751 AD against the Muslim forces and check their expansion into Central Asia. Instead of Persianization the region undergoes Sinocization, lasting half a millennium until Mongol hordes decimate the region. Lasting influences on a lingual and architectural scale are seen even today, prior to Russification hybrid Sino-Turkish languages dominated the region even in the Imperial court of the 'True Emperor of the World' out of Samarkand.

Is it possible that the rise of the Mongols actually results in a wider spread of Chinese influence in Central Asia?
 

RousseauX

Donor
Is it possible that the rise of the Mongols actually results in a wider spread of Chinese influence in Central Asia?

The rise of the Manchus lead to an ethnic Chinese Manchuria.

I'm guessing the Mongols needs to provide some sort of economic rational to settle the steppes though.
 
The rise of the Manchus lead to an ethnic Chinese Manchuria.

I'm guessing the Mongols needs to provide some sort of economic rational to settle the steppes though.

For the settlement of Manchuria(which occurred mainly during the last two decades of the Qing dynasty) the main reason was to decrease population density in the Chinese mainland. This obviously can't be for this. Maybe an economic boom along the Silk Road leads to the Golden Horde region needing settlers in Central Asia?
 

RousseauX

Donor
For the settlement of Manchuria(which occurred mainly during the last two decades of the Qing dynasty) the main reason was to decrease population density in the Chinese mainland. This obviously can't be for this. Maybe an economic boom along the Silk Road leads to the Golden Horde region needing settlers in Central Asia?

Actually the settlement of Manchuria began in the 1780s-90s, and that was to alleviate famine by providing more farmland to peasants in striken areas.

The large majority of settlement was done in the mid-late 19th century, and that was because the Qing dynasty realized that the area was very thinly populated and if the Russians wanted to grab all of Manchuria they could do it pretty easily. Allowing migration was a way for the Qing to hold onto the area because they have a much better claim if millions of their subjects lived there.

The main problem I see for central asia is that I don't think it's viable for agriculture, which means that it's always going to have a pretty low population density.
 
What are Chinese going to do there? Chinese agriculture doesn't work in much of Central Asia, and there's a strong limit to how many merchants can move - especially when the cost of transport to any viable market is so high.
 
What are Chinese going to do there? Chinese agriculture doesn't work in much of Central Asia, and there's a strong limit to how many merchants can move - especially when the cost of transport to any viable market is so high.
I guess then the question would be why people moved into Central Asia in the first place. Perhaps alternately, the Central Asian nomads(Golden Horde?) could be sinified?
 
With a POD in the rise of the Yuan dynasty, make at least 10% of the Central Asian population Chinese. (They do not need to have been taken over by a Chinese dynasty.) Bonus if they become Chinese majority.
A reason why I believe this possible is partly because of the Silk(and the general trans-Eurasian) Trade route and further because of the possible Chinese interests in controlling that route.

Well, it is impossible exactly since the rise of the Yuan dynasty.

You see that's the time when the Mongol World Empire finally disintegrated. The Yuan emperors kept the title of the Universal Khaan and for some periods they were even acknowledged by other Mongol Khanates but it was very formal recognition, the World Empire was no more.

So by that time the Central Asia was mostly controlled by Chagatai Ulus, Juchi Ulus (the Golden Horde) and some parts by Hulaguid Il-Khans.
Why would the Yuan move their Chinese population to the Central Asia which was controlled by other Khanates sometimes openly hostile to the Yuan?

Well, they might have presented some Chinese population to the Persian Il-Khans as they were of the same Tolui House as the Yuan and were in friendly relations, but for the most part these Toluid Khanates did not have direct access to each other through land because of the constant warfare in this part of Asia.

So your only chance to move the Chinese population to the Central Asia and settle them there is before Yuan, while the World Mongol Empire was functioning.
But unlike Assyrians, Babylonians and some others the Mongols were not too enthusiastic about moving their conquered peoples across their Empire and resettling them in the new places. What for? Actually why this fuss?

You'd have hard time trying to explain Chengizz Khan or his immediate successors the necessity to move the Chinese or some other peoples somewhere. "What? We need to punish them? And you suggest moving them to the Central Asia? I have better solution: Let's slaughter one more million! That'll teach these bastards good manners!":D

So, if you want to make the Central Asia Chinese, don't look at the Mongols.
If they are good at something that's depopulating, genocide, something like that.
 
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What are Chinese going to do there? Chinese agriculture doesn't work in much of Central Asia, and there's a strong limit to how many merchants can move - especially when the cost of transport to any viable market is so high.

Here in Xinjiang, there are lot of ethnic "Chinese" (Han and Hui). There are also large populations of Dungans, who are basically Islamicized Chinese (Hui), living in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. Just as Turkic agriculturalists grow wheat to make naan, noodles, and various dumplings, Chinese-speaking farmers can grow wheat and make the same foods they eat in other parts of northern China, namely noodles, steamed bread, dumplings, baozi, and pancakes. To my knowledge, you can also grow millet, buckwheat, and rye here. Beyond farming, there's always room for merchants.

The problem with this challenge is simply how to define "Central Asia". Just as Russians have been sizeable minorities in their former bloc, so can Chinese. Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan are easy, Uzbekistan is more difficult, and Afghanistan is unlikely. No, you don't need Chinese to win at Talas, though it might make things a bit easier.
 
Hadn't China directly controlled eastern parts of what is today Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan in its history? I already remember them having tributary lands as far west as the Caspian, but I don't know the reliability on that.

Yes, the famous Tang Dynasty poet, Li Bai, was born in what is now Kyrgyzstan.
 
At the point of the Mongols, Islamic culture had already dominated over the region for centuries.

T'ang dynasty and the battle of Talas is your best bet for a Chinese cultural dominance of the steppe.
 
At the point of the Mongols, Islamic culture had already dominated over the region for centuries.

T'ang dynasty and the battle of Talas is your best bet for a Chinese cultural dominance of the steppe.

I thought even if the Chinese won at Talas the spread of Islam culture into Central Asia was inevitable? Can they establish military outposts to guard trade lines?
 
Don't think T'ang could hold their central asian territories much longer even if they did win battle of Talas. They were going downhill already and Battle of Talas had little to do with it even if probably contributed to the problems.
 
At the point of the Mongols, Islamic culture had already dominated over the region for centuries.

T'ang dynasty and the battle of Talas is your best bet for a Chinese cultural dominance of the steppe.

Islamic cultural dominance is irrelevant. The Chinese have long ruledd over not only Xinjiang, but Hui further east, who are essentially Muslim Han peoples and significant (and loyal) Islamic populations have long been present in Yunnan and Fujian. Hell, Zheng He was a Muslim.

In my opinion, the geography of the area is a greater, but not insurmountable obstacle. The Tian Shan mountain ranges mean that to reinforce any position to the West of the mountains they must travel through a handful of narrow passes which are fairly easily blocked off. Also, the conventional infantry-based armies of China are excellent for pulling off sieges of sophisticated walled cities, but poor at expanding onto the steppe. I could see some sort of powerful, de facto independent warlord/governor controlling the area on the emperor's behalf, with a cavalry-based army combining the best of Chinese and steppe tactics. They could be tied to the empire with preferential trade and other assistance.
 
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