AHC: China remains significantly strong by the 1800s

Have China retain its strength, continue its path to modernization and prevent it from being seriously undermined by European powers.
 
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Easy, get rid of the Manchus. Li Zicheng takes control of China rather than the Aisin Gioro clan. A Han dominated China wouldn't have much of a problem adopting the various steam gizmos found in the Chinese court for more useful purposes.
 
Easy, get rid of the Manchus. Li Zicheng takes control of China rather than the Aisin Gioro clan. A Han dominated China wouldn't have much of a problem adopting the various steam gizmos found in the Chinese court for more useful purposes.

You are ignoring tons of problems that China was facing during this era. How will a change in dynasty be able to resolve the overpopulation issues that plagued China during this period?

Short of embracing an industrial revolution, any "new" dynasty will face the same problems that was plaguing the Qing court.
 
You are ignoring tons of problems that China was facing during this era. How will a change in dynasty be able to resolve the overpopulation issues that plagued China during this period?

Short of embracing an industrial revolution, any "new" dynasty will face the same problems that was plaguing the Qing court.

Overpopulation, corruption in governmental branches, threats from the northern nomads, negative influences over society that came from Confucianism(restricted scientific development, merchants and artisans being discriminated, blind faith on the government and officials by the people etc.)...

Really, there are SO many problems in China during the early modern period, and if the state or dynasty can solve all these, China can become a power not to be underestimate with.
 
Overpopulation, corruption in governmental branches, threats from the northern nomads, negative influences over society that came from Confucianism(restricted scientific development, merchants and artisans being discriminated, blind faith on the government and officials by the people etc.)...

Really, there are SO many problems in China during the early modern period, and if the state or dynasty can solve all these, China can become a power not to be underestimate with.

Oh, I know. It's not as simple as I made it out to be but not having Manchu rulers would be a start.
 
Oh, I know. It's not as simple as I made it out to be but not having Manchu rulers would be a start.

Well, I was trying to extend your point:eek:

But actually, maybe if there were a more competent Emperor after Qianlong, say he allowed or even encouraged Western knowledge and technique flow in the society, or repressed corruption etc., then Qing dynasty would also be a possibility.
 
Oh, I know. It's not as simple as I made it out to be but not having Manchu rulers would be a start.

I'm not sure a non-Manchu dynasty would be any less conservative than the Manchus themselves. The social climate might be even less welcoming to western knowledge, as a Han-centric dynasty will claim its legitimacy based on expelling foreigners.

Well, I was trying to extend your point:eek:

But actually, maybe if there were a more competent Emperor after Qianlong, say he allowed or even encouraged Western knowledge and technique flow in the society, or repressed corruption etc., then Qing dynasty would also be a possibility.

Would the court support him in westernisation? There has always been a very influential and conservative Confucian elites that is opposed to westernisation. The process of westernisation, even if it was done early, might not be entirely peaceful. Ending the traditional civil examination did dealt a very severe blow to a strong central government in OTL.
 
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I'm not sure a non-Manchu dynasty would be any less conservative than the Manchus themselves. The social climate might be even less welcoming to western knowledge, as a Han-centric dynasty will claim its legitmacy based on expelling foreigners.

Yeah...that concluded that different nation is not that vital, but instead how the personality of the emperor or/and other officials who held large political power, and when they are more narrowminded, so does the government, and so does the society.
 
I'm not sure a non-Manchu dynasty would be any less conservative than the Manchus themselves. The social climate might be even less welcoming to western knowledge, as a Han-centric dynasty will claim its legitmacy based on expelling foreigners.

True, however, the way the Manchus went about their business ended up creating something ugly and awful (hardcore ethnic Nationalism, the concept of Han people), while perpetuating the nomadic model of a small military elite dominating a large number of peasants. A "Han" dynasty would be no guarantee of technological progressiveness but a Manchu one is basically guaranteed to kill it stone dead.
 
True, however, the way the Manchus went about their business ended up creating something ugly and awful (hardcore ethnic Nationalism, the concept of Han people), while perpetuating the nomadic model of a small military elite dominating a large number of peasants. A "Han" dynasty would be no guarantee of technological progressiveness but a Manchu one is basically guaranteed to kill it stone dead.

I just think that there is a very real possibility that an 'Han' dynasty might be worse than the Manchurian dynasty. A more racist and isolationist state might emerge as an aftermath.
 
I just think that there is a very real possibility that an 'Han' dynasty might be worse than the Manchurian dynasty. A more racist and isolationist state might emerge as an aftermath.

Historically, Han people was not racist, even when they had the memory of the Song being invaded successfully by the Mongols. Rather, when a foreigner learnt and practiced Han culture and way of life, he would be accepted as one of them.
 
True, but this could have been changed with the spread of social Darwinism around the world.

Looking at it again, I think racism is not necessarily the right word to use. I am saying that the new dynasty might end up being more xenophobic of foreign influence than the Qing. Afterall, closing off your nations to prevent social ills from their point of view has always been viewed as a legitimate policy by various empires.
 
Historically, there was no "Han" people as a racial idea. Sun Yat-sen and his comrades turned it into a racial concept when they were trying to modernize the Chinese people's nationalist consciousness.
 
Maybe the Ming?

Historical social problems of China aside, couldn't this stronger China be found in a continued naval program under the Ming? For whatever reason, the Ming Emperors decide to go against the bureaucracy and continue naval excursions...
 
Historical social problems of China aside, couldn't this stronger China be found in a continued naval program under the Ming? For whatever reason, the Ming Emperors decide to go against the bureaucracy and continue naval excursions...

Then the emperor's fame must be REALLY seriously affected.

EDIT: Also, can you suggest which emperor you were beginning with?
 
Historical social problems of China aside, couldn't this stronger China be found in a continued naval program under the Ming? For whatever reason, the Ming Emperors decide to go against the bureaucracy and continue naval excursions...

The Mongols will end up reconquering China. A major reason why the funding for the treasure fleet was cut was because of the renewed threat of the Mongols and other nomadic groups that were attacking China from the north.

How much difference can a fleet make in a war against the nomads?
 

Delta Force

Banned
The Chinese built a massive exploration fleet in the 1400s, and sent it around the world to see what everyone else was doing. When the fleet returned the admiral in charge reported on what they had seen, and the emperor decided that China was so advanced that there was no point in dealing with the far less developed and civilized people elsewhere, because they didn't have anything desirable as tribute and didn't want Catholic missionaries everywhere (they found the papal court amusing by Chinese court standards).

Basically, China got a massive ego from seeing how far ahead they were and didn't even really watch what was going on elsewhere, and over the decades the West slowly built up an advantage using technologies the Chinese gave them and expanded upon. Only a few hundred years later China was in the position the West was, but the sense of superiority frequently manifested itself. On several occasions the emperor or empress even demanded tribute from invading Western forces.

I'm not sure what could happen that would make China have less of an ego going into the 1900s (then a total collapse of that ego and rapid Westernization under Mao), but even keeping a fleet and interacting with the West as a vanity project would at least keep them knowledgeable of foreign developments. The issue of course becomes one of what the other areas could offer China. Well into the 1800s the only foreign good China desired was silver.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Easy, get rid of the Manchus. Li Zicheng takes control of China rather than the Aisin Gioro clan. A Han dominated China wouldn't have much of a problem adopting the various steam gizmos found in the Chinese court for more useful purposes.

The Han dominated dynasties were not much better with regards to innovation (see the Ming) than the foreign dynasties were.

Any Chinese dynasty which keeps control of the northern plains tend towards conservatism eventually.
 
The Han dominated dynasties were not much better with regards to innovation (see the Ming) than the foreign dynasties were.

Any Chinese dynasty which keeps control of the northern plains tend towards conservatism eventually.

The problem with the Qing was that even when suffering from an existential crisis (the West), they couldn't reform because they were too afraid of putting guns into hands of the peasants.

The Ming basically had a sweet deal going on (most of the silver from the New World ended up in their coffers without the having to do anything), so they didn't really do that much, especially since the threat from the Mongols was gone by the late 1400s.
 
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