AHC: China joins the Soviet Union

My memory was that after the Soviets captured Manchuria, they stripped it of the factories, mining equipment, and anything else that would help the Soviet Union rebuild. This action upsetted Mao who was counting on using the industrial base that Japan had built was a way to rebuild China.

Assuming that my memory is correct, if the Soviets had instead asked for a percentage of the industrial output from Manchuria would that had made the relationship better?
 
If they intended to join with China I doubt they would have stripped Manchuria.

Of course they'll still want to rebuild and that'll take focus away from becoming fully involved in China so perhaps it requires the Nazis to never invade or be less successful.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Stalin dies in the 30s. Someone else takes over who believes in a global communist state as fast as possible (even if keeping federalism (or more likely getting rid of it)). They annex Eastern Europe including Yugoslavia, since they don't break from USSR. They annex Mongolia and Sinkiang (both asked to join). They have good relations with Republican Spain.

They invade Turkey for allowing German ships through the strait.

They invade Iran as otl and Afghanistan which was pro axis. They support commies in India by a ton, does well since they border India. They aid India against Japan to get more propaganda. India joins after ww2.

They have ethnic Soviets for every ethnicity so everyone is happy.

Mao would probably join if Soviets supported more and you can assume that he'd look forward from a nationalist perspective of eventual Han domination of the new state.

They invade Japan and Korean peninsula. Vietnam and then Indonesia goes commie. The rest of Indochina falls.

Likely this state is more like the cominterm than an actual state. Probably it has control over foreign policy and the army and that's almost it. The state is divided into thousands of small Soviets.
Sorry but the mindset of Russians never accepting Asians as leaders of Soviet Union persisted well past Stalin. In the dying days of the Soviet Union there was joke about “yellowing of the Soviet Union” which was really hiding a worry by Russian and other european people regarding the large families of the Asian people of the Soviet Union when compared to Europeans who had 1-2 kids.

Plus Chinese would not accept any union unless they equal partners to Soviet Union. Meaning they get 1/2 of budget, post in cabinets and so forth.
 

Lusitania

Donor
My memory was that after the Soviets captured Manchuria, they stripped it of the factories, mining equipment, and anything else that would help the Soviet Union rebuild. This action upsetted Mao who was counting on using the industrial base that Japan had built was a way to rebuild China.

Assuming that my memory is correct, if the Soviets had instead asked for a percentage of the industrial output from Manchuria would that had made the relationship better?
The Soviet did not believe the communist Chinese would win and actually turned Manchuria over to nationalist Chinese so they extracted a payment in their view for helping liberate it from Japanese occupation. By stripping anything of value. They also did the same in Eastern Europe
 
You'd have to change the whole nature and composition of the Soviet Union from the get-go and have it dispersed among multiple power centers. For example, the Turkish nationalist movement should see Marxism as the fulfillment of the whole Tanzimât process. Once one of Russia's historic enemies is brought into the Soviet fold (and hence neutralized), that should provide an opening for including more, such as China (though that would require people like Chen Duxiu be more prominent than Mao). Essentially, korenizacija is combined with the Trotskyist belief in world revolution, though not in the way Lev imagined it.
 
Sorry but the mindset of Russians never accepting Asians as leaders of Soviet Union persisted well past Stalin. In the dying days of the Soviet Union there was joke about “yellowing of the Soviet Union” which was really hiding a worry by Russian and other european people regarding the large families of the Asian people of the Soviet Union when compared to Europeans who had 1-2 kids.

Plus Chinese would not accept any union unless they equal partners to Soviet Union. Meaning they get 1/2 of budget, post in cabinets and so forth.

I see absolutely no evidence that Mao demanded half of the budget (that wouldn't make any sense). Why wouldn't they get all of the Chinese budget plus Soviet aid? It's not like the USSR wants to expand to China for taxes...

If Mao or whichever Chinese leader was joining the USSR was demanding half of the budget it would demonstrate that they didn't believe in the project so they wouldn't even be suggesting it.

Whichever leader takes over can simply propagandise it however they like. I'd like to see your source of Russians not liking Asians. I can sure imagine someone saying Russians would never accept a Georgian in power and yet... They also were happy to have Turkics in charge of the Turkish ssrs, Shicai in Sinkiang and Khorloogiin Choibalsan in mpr.

If anyone is racist then they're going against Lenin and can be purged, which is what happened otl. Racist attacks were heavily punished and once the USSR fell they weren't anymore.

Plus I don't think the average citizen is bothered by who are members of the security defence council. Look at the first black member of cabinet vs when the first black president.

You can look at the enormous amount of propaganda that went in otl to share the ethnicities of the USSR, encouraging local languages and festivals and telling ethnic Russians to celebrate the diversity.

Obviously post sino soviet split Russification is in full but with a union there won't be a policy change.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I see absolutely no evidence that Mao demanded half of the budget (that wouldn't make any sense). Why wouldn't they get all of the Chinese budget plus Soviet aid? It's not like the USSR wants to expand to China for taxes...

If Mao or whichever Chinese leader was joining the USSR was demanding half of the budget it would demonstrate that they didn't believe in the project so they wouldn't even be suggesting it.

Whichever leader takes over can simply propagandise it however they like. I'd like to see your source of Russians not liking Asians. I can sure imagine someone saying Russians would never accept a Georgian in power and yet... They also were happy to have Turkics in charge of the Turkish ssrs, Shicai in Sinkiang and Khorloogiin Choibalsan in mpr.

If anyone is racist then they're going against Lenin and can be purged, which is what happened otl. Racist attacks were heavily punished and once the USSR fell they weren't anymore.

Plus I don't think the average citizen is bothered by who are members of the security defence council. Look at the first black member of cabinet vs when the first black president.

You can look at the enormous amount of propaganda that went in otl to share the ethnicities of the USSR, encouraging local languages and festivals and telling ethnic Russians to celebrate the diversity.

Obviously post sino soviet split Russification is in full but with a union there won't be a policy change.
Ok you misunderstood what I said. If there was a union between the Soviet and China he would demand. Not what happen iotl.

Mao wanted the Soviets to recognize the Chinese as equal partners which the Soviet leadership never did. They never believed any of the Asians republics as equal. All you have to do is look at the Soviet leadership which was solely bard on Europeans. If any of the Asians leaders did make it to the Soviet government it was at the lowest levels. So if they not recognize their own citizens as equal why would they recognize some Chinese peasants as equal to Russians?
 
Part of the Communists legitimacy was creating an independent China free from foreign influence and could stand up on the world stage. Any proposal to join the USSR would be shot down. In the other side of the coin, the Soviets (especially the Russians) were not keen to suddenly become the minority in their own nation. China will not join a European led power, it simply won't happen, that's like the US joining France because they are both republics. Idealogy isn't enough.
 
Ok you misunderstood what I said. If there was a union between the Soviet and China he would demand. Not what happen iotl.

Mao wanted the Soviets to recognize the Chinese as equal partners which the Soviet leadership never did. They never believed any of the Asians republics as equal. All you have to do is look at the Soviet leadership which was solely bard on Europeans. If any of the Asians leaders did make it to the Soviet government it was at the lowest levels. So if they not recognize their own citizens as equal why would they recognize some Chinese peasants as equal to Russians?

I wonder why they didn't view places with less than 0.5% of the population as equals... Besides which the USSR never thought of any of their puppet states in Eastern Europe as equals. Trying to turn this into some race analogue makes no sense. The Polish People's Republic wasn't treated as an equal. Neither was Ukraine who were basically ethnic Russians. Trying to say the Asians SSRs weren't treated equally is simply irrelevant.

On top of this, only Tannu Tuva OTL joined willingly to the USSR, the rest of the states added (Baltics and Moldova) were at gun point. So there is no comparison to make OTL.

Stalin didn't treat the Chinese Communists well because he thought they'd lose, he treated the Nationalists like he treated any other state around him, there was no demonstration of racism in their actions. He attempted to exploit them as much as he could.

I absolutely believe that Stalin could easily treat Chinese peasants as equally as Russians. That is that the vast majority of them will have no power and be completely irrelevant. They'll get a sham vote that has no consequences and otherwise suffer whatever the rulers decide, just like OTL. There won't be any meaningful difference. In terms of the upper echelon of the CSFSR they will all be Chinese, just like how ASSRs and SSRs were ruled by natives. Stalin cared far more about loyalty than he did ethnicity and I have no idea why that would suddenly stop in China.

The real question is how many Chinese would be in the top of the USSR which is what dictates foreign policy. Certainly Mao would be, perhaps a few others, but initially at least the old guard would still dominate. You'd need to wait for Chinese generals and such to prove themselves before they could rise up the ranks. Or someone in the Chinese NKVD.
 
I wonder why they didn't view places with less than 0.5% of the population as equals... Besides which the USSR never thought of any of their puppet states in Eastern Europe as equals. Trying to turn this into some race analogue makes no sense. The Polish People's Republic wasn't treated as an equal. Neither was Ukraine who were basically ethnic Russians. Trying to say the Asians SSRs weren't treated equally is simply irrelevant.

On top of this, only Tannu Tuva OTL joined willingly to the USSR, the rest of the states added (Baltics and Moldova) were at gun point. So there is no comparison to make OTL.

Stalin didn't treat the Chinese Communists well because he thought they'd lose, he treated the Nationalists like he treated any other state around him, there was no demonstration of racism in their actions. He attempted to exploit them as much as he could.

I absolutely believe that Stalin could easily treat Chinese peasants as equally as Russians. That is that the vast majority of them will have no power and be completely irrelevant. They'll get a sham vote that has no consequences and otherwise suffer whatever the rulers decide, just like OTL. There won't be any meaningful difference. In terms of the upper echelon of the CSFSR they will all be Chinese, just like how ASSRs and SSRs were ruled by natives. Stalin cared far more about loyalty than he did ethnicity and I have no idea why that would suddenly stop in China.

The real question is how many Chinese would be in the top of the USSR which is what dictates foreign policy. Certainly Mao would be, perhaps a few others, but initially at least the old guard would still dominate. You'd need to wait for Chinese generals and such to prove themselves before they could rise up the ranks. Or someone in the Chinese NKVD.

Neither would want to be part of the other. The only thing they have in common is ideology and even that's tenuous. The Chinese people were sick of being dictated to by foreigners, they would see this as no different.
 
Neither would want to be part of the other. The only thing they have in common is ideology and even that's tenuous.

Interesting that a facet of the ideology is that all states should be united. That's kind of crucial.

Also, I'd like to remind you that this thread is a challenge and even if it's very unlikely it absolutely is not ASB. You should be responding to the OP if you have a problem with the premise. Literally Mao and Stalin could have found an agreement in OTL. They had such dictatorial positions that the opinions of the masses were more than easy to shape for them.
 
Interesting that a facet of the ideology is that all states should be united. That's kind of crucial.

Also, I'd like to remind you that this thread is a challenge and even if it's very unlikely it absolutely is not ASB. You should be responding to the OP if you have a problem with the premise. Literally Mao and Stalin could have found an agreement in OTL. They had such dictatorial positions that the opinions of the masses were more than easy to shape for them.

No they couldn't have, Mao was a Chinese nationalist who wanted an independent China. Why would he want to join the USSR and share power with him. Only sort of way that might happen, is if Communist China is confined to a much smaller slice of land (Maybe part of Manchuria) and is facing a hostile opponent keen to knock them out. If the Communists control the entire country and fought to bring it under their control, they won't be keen to share power with foreigners. I get its the challenge but some things are not going to happen. Like I said, the only thing they have in common is ideology and that diverged heavily, hence the eventual sino soviet split.

Maybe you could have some alt hist future tl where a more utopian USSR tries making a world government forum thing?
 
No they couldn't have, Mao was a Chinese nationalist who wanted an independent China. Why would he want to join the USSR and share power with him. Only sort of way that might happen, is if Communist China is confined to a much smaller slice of land (Maybe part of Manchuria) and is facing a hostile opponent keen to knock them out. If the Communists control the entire country and fought to bring it under their control, they won't be keen to share power with foreigners. I get its the challenge but some things are not going to happen. Like I said, the only thing they have in common is ideology and that diverged heavily, hence the eventual sino soviet split.

Maybe you could have some alt hist future tl where a more utopian USSR tries making a world government forum thing?

If the Soviets fought the communists then nationalism wouldn't be one of the focal points of Chinese communism. Chinese communism developed in a world where the Soviets had basically abandoned them and were not advocating world revolution.

It's absolutely not true that China simply has to be confined to Manchuria. If Hitler dies and the Berlin-Moscow Axis is formed, making Japan isolated then the USSR will be able to support Chinese communists against the HOSTILE OPPONENT of the Japanese. In this environment Soviet propaganda and basic communists dogma will be able to paint the Soviets as saviours.

I absolutely agree that a POD post Chinese Civil War makes any union far more unlikely (requiring Imperialists Americans I'd guess), or at least not until the far future (OWG as you say). That's why my example POD was in the 30s.
 
As many people have mentioned this is super hard to make happen.

I think the cheat way would be to have a somehow more competent Nationalist China that manages to start some sort of land reform leading to communism being far less popular in the countryside. Nationalists start winning hard in the Chinese Civil War, so the Soviets intervene and annex Manchuria and maybe a bit more as a "Chinese" Soviet Republic. Now there's technically a "China" in the USSR. :)

Still incredibly unrealistic in the sense that the Soviets would probably much rather prop up an independent Manchurian satellite, but hey, the possibility is there.
 

Lusitania

Donor
No they couldn't have, Mao was a Chinese nationalist who wanted an independent China. Why would he want to join the USSR and share power with him. Only sort of way that might happen, is if Communist China is confined to a much smaller slice of land (Maybe part of Manchuria) and is facing a hostile opponent keen to knock them out. If the Communists control the entire country and fought to bring it under their control, they won't be keen to share power with foreigners. I get its the challenge but some things are not going to happen. Like I said, the only thing they have in common is ideology and that diverged heavily, hence the eventual sino soviet split.

Maybe you could have some alt hist future tl where a more utopian USSR tries making a world government forum thing?
When Mao arrived in Moscow for Stalin’s birthday soon after the communist gained power was the first major China-Soviet discord. As the second largest country leader he expected to be received as an equal. The Chinese were treated as any of the other African or Asian countries who sent delegations. The Chinese were housed in an old hotel and Mao never forgave the Soviets for the slight. Then when the Korean War broke out the Soviets furnished the Chinese with weapons while Mao supplied the troops. When the Soviets sent the invoice for the weapons to the Chinese that seal the hatred Mao felt for Stalin and Soviets.
 
There was never any question of China joining the Soviet Union, but there was a question as to the extent to which it would be integrated into the Soviet bloc. And the irony here is that when the Chinese wanted greater integration, the Soviets did not--and vice versa! See Odd Arne Wested, The Cold War: A World History, pp. 144-5:

"One key reason for Moscow’s worry was the Chinese refusal to further integrate into the Soviet bloc, militarily and economically. Up to 1958 it was China that had pressed for such integration, with the Soviets holding back, in part because they feared that China’s enormous population would prove a strain on the Soviet and eastern European economies. But when the Soviet Ministry of Defense in the summer of 1958 had proposed a few relatively routine steps of military coordination, such as Soviet-operated early-warning systems and naval communication transmitters in China, Mao had reacted furiously. “I could not sleep, nor did I have dinner,” he told the surprised Soviet ambassador Pavel Iudin.

"'You never trust the Chinese! You only trust the Russians! [To you] the Russians are first-class [people] whereas the Chinese are among the inferior who are dumb and careless.… Well, if you want joint ownership and operation, how about having them all—let us turn into joint ownership and operation our army, navy, air force, industry, agriculture, culture, education. Can we do this? Or [you] may have all of China’s more than ten thousand kilometers of coastline and let us only maintain a guerilla force. With a few atomic bombs, you think you are in a position to control us.'"

https://books.google.com/books?id=3TBXDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT283
https://books.google.com/books?id=3TBXDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT284

AFAIK, that was the only time Mao mentioned a complete merger of the USSR and the PRC and obviously he did so sarcastically...
 
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