Your challenge, with a POD after 500 BC, is for a China-esque "eternal empire" (where dynasties might rise and fall, but the concept of said empire being a permanent entity is part of the mindset of the people) to arise in the Indian subcontinent. Bonus points if the south of India is considered a central part of said China-esque Indian Empire as opposed to a series of tributary kingdoms which a competent emperor might conquer.
AHC: China-esque "eternal empire" in India
- Thread starter Whiteshore
- Start date
Including the southern half of India might be hard, but the northern part could probably have that concept, with the strengthening of the concept of Aryavarta under a series of dynasties dominating everything from the Indus to the Ganges. Maybe if the Maurya dynasty remains in power and consolidates its gains instead of trying to conquer all of India.
Kaze
Banned
Even if you do unite the land there are problems. One of the basic reasons for the divided natures of India is the Caste System -
a. breaking up the caste system
b. at least putting the Brahmans subservient the rule of the Emperor would be a good start
or c. establish an exam system as OTL China. Throughout the whole history of China, they kept the exam system filling the gaps of the civil service instead of nepotism (there were some exceptions).
a. breaking up the caste system
b. at least putting the Brahmans subservient the rule of the Emperor would be a good start
or c. establish an exam system as OTL China. Throughout the whole history of China, they kept the exam system filling the gaps of the civil service instead of nepotism (there were some exceptions).
In the above post, the suggestions "a" and "b" are more important. Sometimes I wonder why Ashoka who converted to Buddhism and put much effort to spread the message of Gautham Buddha did not take those steps. He must have known that the Brahmins were bitter enemies of the Buddhism and would do anything to prevent the rise of Buddhism. As an unchallenged emperor of the subcontinent he could have easily put down all the enemies of his adopted faith, but he permitted all belief systems to prosper equally. This enabled the Brahmins to overthrow the Mouryan Empire within half a century after the death of the Emperor Ashoka. The last Mouryan Emperor was assassinated in front of the Mouryan Army force by the Commander-in-Chief of that Army, Pushyamitra Sunga, who was a Brahmin. He established the Sunga dynasty and persecuted the Buddhists in many ways. Buddhism which had grown to become the majority religion in the Mouryan Empire declined under the future kings. Only a few rulers like Kanishka, Harsha or Palas of Bengal acted as patrons of Buddhism in the future period.
This is a misconception.The examination system was only introduced in the early 600s under Emperor Yang of Sui.Even then,most officials until the end of the Tang Dynasty in the early 900s were recruited based on recommendations by existing officials(i.e. nepotism).
Until the end of the Tang Dynasty,a caste system did exist in China,with an aristocracy monopolising the upper ranks of government.Apart from slaves and freedmen,serfs also exist.
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Could a China-esque Indian empire push into Persia, perhaps push into Tibet during the latter's period of fragmentation or even clash with China in Central Asia (assuming they maintain a presence via a Tang victory at Talas) and Burma / Nanzhao?
samcster94
Banned
How did Buddhism get to be successful in Sri Lanka later on then???? I do oddly find Buddhism and Christianity to have a parallel, where a different religion dominated their "Holy land" after their early centuries.
Far more possible if we reduce it to the Indo-Gangetic Plain, excluding the hilly areas in Himachal, Kashmir, and Uttarakhand.
The biggest difficulty to this is that India has been invaded a lot. Before the Muslims, there were the Hepthalites, the Saka, the Kushan, and the Greco-Bactrians. All of them were absorbed into Indian culture to a far larger degree due to an absence of a discrete religion (the Hepthalites and Saka both became Hindu, the Kushan followed a form of Buddhism overlain on top of an odd pantheon of Indic, Iranic, and Hellenic gods, and the Greco-Bactrians were of course Greek Buddhists), but India has been invaded a lot. I think this is why no eternal empire could exist, because if India ever became too wealthy and stable, invaders would come and destroy that stability. China never had that problem because it was sufficiently far away from the steppes except when it really pushed into its frontiers, and by the time the Mongols had the strength to invade, the eternal empire idea was far too rigid. I don't see any easy fix to this issue. I guess, if an empire fortified the Khyber Pass and other invasion routes sufficiently, by the time they fall the eternal empire idea could stick sufficiently that the invaders instead choose to proclaim that they got the *Mandate of Heaven, thus continuing the "eternal empire".
The Shunga barely ruled Maghada, and even that rule was severely threatened by the Indo-Greeks who nearly conquered land as far east as Pataliputra. And really, most historians agree that the Shunga's intolerance was drastically exaggerated by the Indo-Greeks who wished to cast themselves as saviours. They weren't the reason Buddhism died in India, especially when you consider how much it prospered under later kings, especially the Kushan and the Indo-Greeks.
Buddhism prospered strongly in India until the Gupta Empire, a stable period of Hindu revival. If, instead, a revival of the Buddhist Kushan occurred, suffice to say, Vedanta Hinduism would have lost out and India would be Buddhist for posterity. Of course, unlike the Abrahamic religions, Buddhism isn't an exclusivist religion, and so Indians would likely continue to worship gods.
The biggest difficulty to this is that India has been invaded a lot. Before the Muslims, there were the Hepthalites, the Saka, the Kushan, and the Greco-Bactrians. All of them were absorbed into Indian culture to a far larger degree due to an absence of a discrete religion (the Hepthalites and Saka both became Hindu, the Kushan followed a form of Buddhism overlain on top of an odd pantheon of Indic, Iranic, and Hellenic gods, and the Greco-Bactrians were of course Greek Buddhists), but India has been invaded a lot. I think this is why no eternal empire could exist, because if India ever became too wealthy and stable, invaders would come and destroy that stability. China never had that problem because it was sufficiently far away from the steppes except when it really pushed into its frontiers, and by the time the Mongols had the strength to invade, the eternal empire idea was far too rigid. I don't see any easy fix to this issue. I guess, if an empire fortified the Khyber Pass and other invasion routes sufficiently, by the time they fall the eternal empire idea could stick sufficiently that the invaders instead choose to proclaim that they got the *Mandate of Heaven, thus continuing the "eternal empire".
The Shunga barely ruled Maghada, and even that rule was severely threatened by the Indo-Greeks who nearly conquered land as far east as Pataliputra. And really, most historians agree that the Shunga's intolerance was drastically exaggerated by the Indo-Greeks who wished to cast themselves as saviours. They weren't the reason Buddhism died in India, especially when you consider how much it prospered under later kings, especially the Kushan and the Indo-Greeks.
Buddhism prospered strongly in India until the Gupta Empire, a stable period of Hindu revival. If, instead, a revival of the Buddhist Kushan occurred, suffice to say, Vedanta Hinduism would have lost out and India would be Buddhist for posterity. Of course, unlike the Abrahamic religions, Buddhism isn't an exclusivist religion, and so Indians would likely continue to worship gods.
not as great as you think - most of the "civil service" appointees were functionally ill prepared for the realities of governance beyond the second century BC and partially lead to the collapse of the Ming - the system is not a panacea
Yes. I also do not consider the exam system that much important in the continuity of the Chinese polity. But the caste system and the Brahminical domination of the society hindered the development of national unity in India.
