AHC: Central Powers USA --- One man in the wrong place.

Can you guess who/what my POD involves?

  • Obviously, you're going to have to create something that would get the USA fighting mad!

    Votes: 27 75.0%

  • You'll make up something completely off the wall, and call it good.

    Votes: 7 19.4%

  • It was colonel Mustard, in the Library, with the Candle stick

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • Total voters
    36
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Post one
  • Index
    • Shadow Master

    Shadow Master

    Banned
    Ok, so to set the stage properly, here in this thread I am attempting to answer an AHC quoted below;
    Antonio the Komnenoi said:
    Make the United States (With a Post-1900 PoD) join the Central Powers in August 1914. There needs to be a great swift in alignment of American politics for that to happen for sure, but how ? Maybe USA and Britain enter in a Crisis during/after the Hispano-American War ? More German Immigrants to America ? A different President ?

    And what terms would the USA demand if they won ? Canada ? And what if they Lost ?
    Click to expand...

    This challenge, should you choose to accept it..."Que up the old mission impossible theme song here"

    Ok, for this challenge, a couple things have to be decided here, do we:

    1. Go with a totally changed world where things go awry years before, and thus the butterflies wings may cause the OTL forces to be changed in radical ways,
    2. Or do we try to keep the world as close to OTL as we can, so the least changes are needed, so we get an otherwise OTL isolationist/slightly pro-Entente USA into the war by/in August, 1914.

    I went with the latter, as I just wanted to have folks be able to use the OTL starting point as a beginning. If you are looking for a POD that gets the USA into the CP years before WWI, and where everyone knows this, and changes their plans accordingly, then stop right now, as this thread will not give you what you seek.

    OTOH...

    If you like reading things that don't quite fit in a neat little box, and being all logical and straightforward, then maybe, just maybe, this thread is for you.

    I have always been a bit 'off' since I was just a youngster, and saw things from my own, warped little point of view, and so this link to a movie scene I love kinda fits in well with what I'm about to share.

    Before reading any further, watch BOTH links, laugh, drink a cold one (or three), smoke one if you got one, and get yourself all mellow and situated...

    When I first saw the AHC, I said to myself, "Self, there ain't no way in heck the good ole USA is gonna be joining the Central Powers in WWI, let alone right off the bat" and so saying, I just decided to lurk and enjoy the fun of folks picking sides and going at it. It wasn't until Nov 30th, 4 days after the OP threw down the virtual gauntlet, that my INTP Brain, that obviously has both too much time on it's hands and not enough to keep it from doing crazy things, had been working in the background on how to get at least something like what the OP asked for, came around knocking on my conscious mind, and said:

    "Hey Shadow Master, remember when you said it couldn't be done, you know, that really hard AHC posted over on the awesome ALT history.com website that you love so much?"

    "You mean the CP USA one?"

    "Yeah, the one where the USA goes all stupid and declares war on the Entente, and fights alongside the CP?"

    "Yeah, I remember that one, couldn't see how that was going to be possible..."

    INTP Brain     says, "Well, I have been thinking about that, and I have a workable solution that (sorta) gives us what the OP was asking for!"

    "Ok mister smarty pants INTP Brain, tell me how your going to create a possible way for that to come to pass! I'm not at all sure that you know what your talking about, so call me skeptical..."

    Next post, more Shadow Master bs, but then the third time will be the charm, will actually get down to the long and shamelessly hyped POD.
     
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  • Index

    • Theoretical_TJ

    I think it’s possible, especially if British arrogance on the seas leads to several crises and diplomatic incidents.

    If the British sabotaged the Russo-Japanese peace or mucked around in China in a different way, I could see some major irritation. Germany IOTL had a ridiculously long leash in terms of sabotage permitted to happen in the US without comment. If Britain does the same kind of thing through Canada but gets caught, it could backfire badly.
     

    Scott Washburn

    I'm not sure a 1914 scenario is very likely, but later on, maybe. Don't forget that the US Naval Act of 1916 where they pledged to build "A fleet second to none" was aimed every bit as much at the British as it was at the Germans. America was angry at both countries over their naval policies and wanted to be in a position where neither one could boss them around. If the British had done something too stupidly obnoxious, it might possibly have tipped America toward Germany. Unlikely, but maybe not impossible.
     

    Riain

    I wish you the best of luck. The US was very active in Latin America in the years before WW1, and Canada had a pretty hefty militia and was talking about conscription so at least some of the building blocks are there.
     
    Shadow Master

    Shadow Master

    Banned
    I've had a very trying week, and had just 6 hours of sleep over the last two nights. Back when I was young and healthy, that posed no problems, but now that I have officially entered "Middle Age (NOT Old Age, mind, just Middle Age)", I find that I do need to get at least 5 hours sleep or I malfunction, lol. Post Two will be made after I have a day off, and the next one of those will be Friday, so Saturday is looking like the first window for the second of the intended three parts I plan to introduce the POD. Until then, I'll be content to make replies and answer questions.

    That much being said, just to make clear:

    My POD requires just a very slight change in one fellows plans, in late 1913, and then allows us the freedom to imagine a world made much worse than historically (Or not, depending) by history repeating itself once the dominoes start to fall...

    Theoretical_TJ said:
    I think it’s possible, especially if British arrogance on the seas leads to several crises and diplomatic incidents.

    If the British sabotaged the Russo-Japanese peace or mucked around in China in a different way, I could see some major irritation. Germany IOTL had a ridiculously long leash in terms of sabotage permitted to happen in the US without comment. If Britain does the same kind of thing through Canada but gets caught, it could backfire badly.
    Click to expand...
    We recently have had some threads that have made it clear that at least some folks think that the OTL Entente was going to mop the floor with the CP/Germans, no matter what, and that the role played by the USA was not actually needed, but rather just a nice thing to have, but not at all critical for the Entente victory. One such thread can be found here.

    The AHC that got me thinking up this POD was another thread that has us looking at an Entente not only not having a pet USA in their back pocket, but one that actively goes to war against them. I myself gave a good deal of thought to writing a thread that falls somewhere between these two threads, more than selling blockade runners to Germany, less than outright war. I would be interested in having you elaborate on a few such instances where the UK might have put the wrong foot forward, say 2-6 such things, so not to many, and not too few, if you're of a mind to.

    Antonio the Komnenoi said:
    Wow, I ended up creating a massive Challenge it seems, I will be watching this.
    Click to expand...
    Yes Sir, that you did, lol. You already have a very brief, and badly written rough draft, of my POD as a private conversation sent on Friday before last. I'll ask for a private word with you via that conversation, ok? I hope to make just three threadmarked POSTS in this thread, but will of course have many responses that are not threadmarked.

    yourworstnightmare said:
    I Think the PoD will have to be Before 1900.
    Click to expand...
    I have just the one, and as mentioned above, it changes first, in an extremely tiny way, the late 1913 OTL (and interestingly, quite close to this date, 105 years ago), and from there I just need to construct a bit of alternate history up until I steer things to the flash point, and then plug our fictional, changed circumstances into OTL, and let histories mistakes repeat themselves in a likely worse WWI. I say likely, as opposed to certainly, because there is a slim chance that this altered world might not actually fight an annihilatory war starting in 1914, because the change in the alignment of the USA may, as @History Learner has been trying to tell us, the resources may not be there for the Entente to fight a prolonged war without shipping, materials, OIL, and finances from/by the USA. We might just see a short war ITTL in the 1910's, followed by a mad scramble for resource development, and then a new, as yet unimagined war in the 1920's or 1930's, when everyone has had a chance to get their war economies planned and prepared for.

    Scott Washburn said:
    I'm not sure a 1914 scenario is very likely, but later on, maybe. Don't forget that the US Naval Act of 1916 where they pledged to build "A fleet second to none" was aimed every bit as much at the British as it was at the Germans. America was angry at both countries over their naval policies and wanted to be in a position where neither one could boss them around. If the British had done something too stupidly obnoxious, it might possibly have tipped America toward Germany. Unlikely, but maybe not impossible.
    Click to expand...
    I share your thoughts on the "Ticked off at both sides" mentality thing of OTL USA. I even considered an ATL where the USA pulls all her shipping from the European theater, for the duration of what they expect to be a short war, and enforces only unarmed merchant men being allowed in US ports, while building and selling trade Submarines for to re-establish limited blockade proof (sorta) trade with Germany.

    Anyway, thanks to everyone for their comments, and this weekend I'll put up POST TWO.
     
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    Ramontxo

    Donor
    To pick too many enemies at the same time (invade France through Belgium the only country on earth whose Independence the UK, and yourself too, has guaranteed. Declare unrestrained submarine warfare fully knowing it could very well bring the USA in the war...) The UK instead went out of its way to appease ithe USA in its Canada border controversy much to Canada chagrin... However I wait very interested in your Pod
    .
     
    Shadow Master

    Shadow Master

    Banned
    I have to break this one down a bit...
    Ramontxo said:
    To pick too many enemies at the same time (invade France through Belgium the only country on earth whose Independence the UK, and yourself too, has guaranteed. Declare unrestrained submarine warfare fully knowing it could very well bring the USA in the war...) The UK instead went out of its way to appease ithe USA in its Canada border controversy much to Canada chagrin... However I wait very interested in your Pod
    .
    Click to expand...

    So,
    Ramontxo said:
    To pick too many enemies at the same time (invade France through Belgium the only country on earth whose Independence the UK, and yourself too, has guaranteed. Declare unrestrained submarine warfare fully knowing it could very well bring the USA in the war...)
    Click to expand...
    Im not sure how to respond to this, mainly as I cannot get my mind to grasp what this is in response to?!? Taken as is, I am left thinking that this part is written about/from a German prospective for OTL's WWI. Can I get you to help me out here and edit in what this is in fact a reply to? For instance, if this is a reply to my post immediately above, I have to apologise, for that was in reply to one of the upthread responses, and was not really on topic for this thread, where I am getting around to posting my entry to the Alternate History Challenge posted by @Antonio the Komnenoi in his thread Here.

    Ramontxo said:
    The UK instead went out of its way to appease the USA in its Canada border controversy much to Canada's chagrin...
    Click to expand...
    True, all of this! Sometime next week, once I have had a chance to actually post my POD, folks will understand why, nothing the UK did, or can do, will prevent the USA's DoW. Keep in mind though, that this POD is the product of my twisted mind, and is specifically an attempt to allow a PoD that gives us an OTL USA getting sucked into what in our history became the first world war, without warning or intent.


    Ramontxo said:
    However I wait very interested in your Pod.
    Click to expand...
    Hopefully, the POD you are referring to will be the one this thread is supposed to provide. If, OTOH, you are referring to the stuff I briefly mentioned directly above your post, I'll be happy to make a thread to discuss and play around with such an idea/concept.
     
    Post Two
  • Index
    • Shadow Master

    Shadow Master

    Banned
    "Ok mister smarty pants INTP Brain, tell me how you’re going to create a possible way for that to come to pass! I'm not at all sure that you know what you’re talking about, so call me skeptical..."

    INTP Brain says: “remember that link to ‘BTILC’ upthread, where Egg and Jack are talking about the magic potion, and Egg says that immortal line …”See things that no one else can see, Do things that no one else can do”… and now think back to your time in the Berlin Brigade.”

    “Ok, I got that…”

    “Do you remember that time when, firing the M60 machine gun during the crew served weapons firing exercise, you put a six to nine round burst of live rounds through a single hole in the target 10 meters away?”

    “Yeah, that was good for a laugh at the time, but I wish that I had kept the target.”

    “Ok, and how about that time when, during a squad level urban warfare exercise, you were sent to defend the basement of a building that had no basement, but rather just a dead end around the corner at the bottom of the stairs?”

    “Ah, my own personal Kobayashi Maru, where I was tasked to defend the basement in a building that had no basement! I loved the look on the evaluator’s face when he saw my solution to the unwinnable tactical situation that I found myself in! Well that and the ruthless slaughtering of one attacking squad after another, over and over again, until the attackers finally followed procedure and started off the assault with a hand grenade! That was a blast.

    My point, Shadow Master, is that, back in the day, I, your INTP Brain, saw things that no one else saw, and did things that no one else did!!!

    “Ok, I’ll have to give you that, as I was there after all, so I’ll listen with an open mind as you list out all that you have to say on the subject of providing an entry in the AHC, to get the USA into the CP, in August, 1914.”

    **In OTL, the USA was not going to be getting into WWI in 1914 at all, so that is a big challenge/change all by itself. Then we not only have to have the USA in it in 1914, but fighting alongside the CP! If folks want an insidious/twisted/evil/sneaky way to pull this off, keep reading! If you just want a straightforward, cut and dried, here it is all wrapped up and with a nice little ribbon on top kinda thing, I suggest that you go and look under your Christmas tree!

    So, we need the USA to declare war, and fight alongside the CP. My PoD can deliver a US DoW in 1914, but like I said, think sneaky/twisted. And to say that my point of departure gets the US to declare war, this is true and misleading both at the same time. True that the USA is going to war! True that the USA is even going to be fighting alongside a member of the CP, in mid 1914. Not true, that the USA is formally allied with/part of the CP!

    It also isn’t true that the US is even at war with the Entente!!!

    All my evil PoD does, is to take a good look at what was, and bring in a change in what was, to include a casus belli for the USA, in order to get the unprepared USA into the list of nations that end up fighting what becomes WWI. In post #47 I gave a clue/link, but naturally, most will not even see it. Are YOU someone that can see what no one else can see? For those that do see it, don’t spoil it by telling everyone where it is, and what it is, but just start a private conversation with me. Look at the contents of the link, this thread’s title, and what I have been on about here, and tell me what my POD is!

    Enjoy!!!
     
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    • The Undead Martyr

    Italian entry into the central powers could help, since you've then got the three biggest immigrant groups aligned, plus a better naval situation for the cp means a more desperate british blockade which means more opportunity for pissing off the United States.

    Maybe something with Japan or Russia in the far East results in the US entry?
     

    Wendell

    The Undead Martyr said:
    Italian entry into the central powers could help, since you've then got the three biggest immigrant groups aligned, plus a better naval situation for the cp means a more desperate british blockade which means more opportunity for pissing off the United States.

    Maybe something with Japan or Russia in the far East results in the US entry?
    Click to expand...
    Maybe Taft's deal with Japan regarding Korea and the Philippines does not happen?
     

    Battleships Spaceships

    Wendell said:
    I think TR's deal was over Japanese American kids getting to attend white schools, and, separately, his mediation to end the Russo-Japanese War, but I might be wrong.
    Click to expand...

    The deal over children had nothing to do with the end of the Russo-Japanese war. I know that TR was involved in that...it's the Treaty of Portland
     

    Wendell

    Battleships Spaceships said:
    The deal over children had nothing to do with the end of the Russo-Japanese war. I know that TR was involved in that...it's the Treaty of Portland
    Click to expand...
    I used a comma, and said that they were separate occurrences. I am aware that they are separate and unrelated to each other other than being deals TR struck with Japan.
     
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