AHC: Catherine the Great of Russia begins transition to democracy?

Alaska: An American Colony, Stephen Haycox, 2002.

page 85:

"In 1796, Catherine II died at age sixty-seven. She had stamped her character and her name on Russia during the generation of her reign. During the brief ascendancy of her son, Emperor Paul (Paul I), Rezanov rose still higher in the court, becoming secretary of the senate in 1797."
page 88:

"Catherine the Great never intended that her son Paul—weak, mentally unbalanced, and ineffectual—should succeed her. Instead, she favored her grandchildren, particularly Alexander, who was both bright and competent and shared her understanding of and commitment to rational government. In March 1801, Alexander authorized a palace coup in which he replaced the tsar, who was murdered a short time later. The charge in government had no effect on the organization of the new Russian American Company (RAC). Alexander I approved establishing the RAC headquarters in St. Petersburg, which kept it completely under Nikolai Rezanov's protection and direction. Among other things, Rezanov urged members of the court and the aristocracy in St. Petersburg to invest in the new entity, which they did readily, including the tsar."

https://books.google.com/books?id=natRq6WCu4oC&pg=PA88&dq=%22Catherine+the+Great+never+intended+that+her+son+Paul%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cVoHVaOnAarIsASZ1ICYCQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Catherine%20the%20Great%20never%20intended%20that%20her%20son%20Paul%22&f=false
This is the stuff of Greek tragedy. I mean, Holy Shit. Alexander I set in motion the course of events which led to the murder of either his father or uncle, or maybe he intended it all along.

Just maybe Catherine could have anticipated some of this and/or she either lives longer or gets started earlier.

Now, it is rare to have a monarch who moves toward democracy, but it has occasionally happened in human history, right? Maybe she could have encouraged her son Paul to take up new business ventures or something else which tends to reward risk and different ways of doing things.
 
This is the stuff of Greek tragedy. I mean, Holy Shit. Alexander I set in motion the course of events which led to the murder of either his father or uncle, or maybe he intended it all along.

Just maybe Catherine could have anticipated some of this and/or she either lives longer or gets started earlier.

Now, it is rare to have a monarch who moves toward democracy, but it has occasionally happened in human history, right? Maybe she could have encouraged her son Paul to take up new business ventures or something else which tends to reward risk and different ways of doing things.
I don't understand what you are trying to say.How does your quotation show that Russia would transit to democracy?
 
Catherine the Great has real doubts about her son taking the throne when she dies. She will probably at least mull over her options, no guarantee that she'll land on the democracy option, but outside chance that she might.
 
isn't it possible for a monarch to name a successor aside from who would take the throne by default? or was that just in Britain?
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Is Russia really capable of democracy at that time ? The best i can see is oligarchy of boyars, even granting voice to townsmen is unlikely. If Catherine truly have no capable heir, the best she can do is making Boyar Duma, and Sejm in PLC next door give very bad reputation to this sort of proto-democracy.
 
isn't it possible for a monarch to name a successor aside from who would take the throne by default? or was that just in Britain?

If you have enough power you can do whatever you want. The Tsar certainly had enough power to declare anyone they wanted successor.
 
isn't it possible for a monarch to name a successor aside from who would take the throne by default? or was that just in Britain?

Apparently not in Russia, not at this time, because Catherine wanted her grandson Alexander to take the throne.

Actually, the Emperor/empress did designate their successor in Russia at this time. They just didn't always make it stick after their deaths, hence the era of palace coups.

Russia followed the Peter's succession rules, which basically said that the Emperor picks their successor. Or at least they tried.

It was Catherine the Great's son Paul who changed the succession laws to make them clearer and more strict.
 
She's got no reason to try and start the transition.

If she tried to do such reforms and isolate the nobles, she's going the same way her dear husband did.
 
I suspect the first real chance for democratic reform in Russia is Alexander II, who was planning on creating a Parliament just before he was assassinated. Now it probably wouldn't be that powerful, but the fact that it could change without something like the 1905 Revolution could have serious consequences for Russian politics.
 
Catherine the great beginning transition to democracy is about as probable as Stalin doing so.

Empress Anna Petrovna would make more sense.
 
I suspect the first real chance for democratic reform in Russia is Alexander II,
Probably the earliest shot at establishing democracy in the Russian Empire is the 1825 Decemberist Revolt.
The best i can see is oligarchy of boyars, even granting voice to townsmen is unlikely.
Were boyars even around in Catherine's time? I thought Peter the Great broke them as a force in Russian politics? Or am misremembering?
 
No boyars in Catherine's time, only gentry who could be raised from the commons at any point.

She held liberal views when younger but got increasingly more conservative as she got old. I don't think she's a great candidate or "Russian democracy".
 
Were boyars even around in Catherine's time? I thought Peter the Great broke them as a force in Russian politics? Or am misremembering?
The boyars (sing. boyarin) is an old Russian (actually ancient Slavic) name for the class of big hereditary noble land-owners who held the most important official state positions mostly by virtue of birth.
This class did not disappear, it just lost this old cool name during Peter the Great reforms. And actually it lost some of its old power and prestige.
 
i think dual PODs could work here: first, Catherine the Great chooses a different, more competent successor which shakes up the idea of primogeniture, which may contribute to an eventual realization of constitutional monarchy and democracy in Russia; then, the Decembrist Revolt POD gets it further on that path. for an eventual full transition to democracy, iirc by Nicholas II's reign the people were sick of living in an absolutist state but were willing to keep the Tsar so long as he was reduced to a symbolic role like the British monarchy had already been
 

Stolengood

Banned
There's a lot wrong with those sources quoted above:

  • Alexander didn't plan the coup; it was sprung on him by advisers of his father who hated his father. He was even in his father's castle at the time his father was murdered -- he was shown his father's body and told it was "time to rule!"
  • Paul was not unstable -- he just really, REALLY hated his mother -- but Alexander DEFINITELY was unstable; just look at his flip-flopping when it came to Napoleon and his religious mania.
  • And Catherine, as romanticized a ruler as she is now, in no way ruled legitimately; originally only a Prussian princess chosen by Tsarina Elizabeth to be her nephew's wife, she murdered her husband, the actual Tsar, in order to gain power -- and though, at first, she claimed to be ruling only as a regency for his son Paul, it very quickly became apparent that she was concentrating all the power in herself. There is no way in hell she ever would've condoned Russian democracy.
 

tenthring

Banned
Catherine the great beginning transition to democracy is about as probable as Stalin doing so.

Empress Anna Petrovna would make more sense.

Seriously. The women renounced the entire enlightenment after seeing what went down in France. She even seemed to blame herself and her early patronage of enlightenment figures for the Kings death.
 
Catherine the great beginning transition to democracy is about as probable as Stalin doing so.

I disagree. After all, Stalin believed that his actions would actually be the beginning of the transition to real democracy. He was far more likely than Catherine to do it.
;)
 
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