AHC: Canadian Military Armed with Russian Weapons/Equipment

Incognito

Banned
As the title says. Have the armed forces of Canada make use of Russian or Soviet military equipment. Which equipment specifically enters service with the Cunaks is up to you -- it can be T-90 tanks or Antonov transport planes or the new PAK FA or whatever else you can think of.

There are only 2 conditions:

1) You can't butterfly away the Cold War.

2) The Russian/Soviet equipment has to enter mainstream service. Acquiring a few samples for study or op-force training does not count.
 
The only viable way I can see to do this is have Canada become a member of the non-aligned movement and be resolutely neutral. If that happens then they can buy from both sides, or like Sweden it may just encourage them to build and maintain a domestic defence industry to produce their own equipment, either home grown or licensed. One avenue of interest to possibly take is to look at is strategic airlift, always useful considering Canada's size - they decide that the C-141 Starlifter or C-5 Galaxy are just way too large whilst the C-130 Hercules too small so look at Il-76s or other offerings from Antonov and Ilyushin to fill the gap.
 
As Canada is a member of NATO, I don't see that ever happening, and after WWII I especially don't see it. The problem is that after the war the Canadian military quickly joined the forces securing Europe from the Soviet threat. Short of a total withdrawl from NATO at some point, this is impossible, and if any Canadian PM managed to withdraw Canada from NATO that same PM is not gonna be buying anything for the Canadian military.

In short: ASB.
 

Incognito

Banned
As Canada is a member of NATO, I don't see that ever happening, and after WWII I especially don't see it. The problem is that after the war the Canadian military quickly joined the forces securing Europe from the Soviet threat. Short of a total withdrawl from NATO at some point, this is impossible, and if any Canadian PM managed to withdraw Canada from NATO that same PM is not gonna be buying anything for the Canadian military.

In short: ASB.
What about in the post-Cold War period? Russia offered to sell military equipment to Western-allied on various occasions. In fact, France uses Russian laser-guided artillery shells.

EDIT: for some reason, I can't find recent information on French use of Russian shells. Either they but them and there was no new news about this or the deal did not go through. Anyway, this is what I was talking about: http://cfries.canalblog.com/archives/2006/11/18/3198366.html
 
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What about in the post-Cold War period? Russia offered to sell military equipment to Western-allied on various occasions. In fact, France uses Russian laser-guided artillery shells.

I don't know what military equipment Canada would want. The comments about strategic airlifters are an idea, but IL-76s and the like would have to use Western avionics and engines, which would be a huge challenge to develop and install.
 

NothingNow

Banned
I don't know what military equipment Canada would want. The comments about strategic airlifters are an idea, but IL-76s and the like would have to use Western avionics and engines, which would be a huge challenge to develop and install.

Yeah, but it's something the Russians do fairly regularly these days with airliners and the like (see the Tu-154M-100, Tu-204-120/220, and Il-114-100 for examples.)
It actually isn't that hard, and for an order of 20+ large aircraft, probably fairly cheap.
 
There would have to be a major fallout in Canada's relations with the US and Europe sometime in the 1990's for this to happen at all. I'm thinking this would involve an ASB type event, but I can't think of anything ATM, so this will be purely handwavium. Canada has a pretty significant defense industry so license production and industrial partnerships are a must, so assume most of this equipment is jointly developed or locally manufactured. This is a rough list so anything that you think should be here feel free to add.

Army:
Leopard C2's will be in service for a while and the glaring issues with the T-series will prevent the T-90 from entering service. A T-95 or T-99 type tank possibly jointly developed with Russia is the most likely option.

Again their existing inventory will suffice until the Russian BMP replacement comes around. Some BMP-3's may be bought in small numbers but since its replacement is around the corner and is likely a joint development, it won't become standard. The same goes for the LAV-III, being replaced by the next generation Russian wheeled IFV.

The Gaz Tigr will replace most of their light vehicles like the MILCOTS Silverado's and G-Wagen's. Kamaz trucks will become standard for most transport and module carrier roles.

Artillery will be comprised of the Tornado family of MLRS and the Iskander tactical ballistic missiles, 2S35 Koalitsya SP guns and modern towed 152mm and 130mm howitzers to replace Russia's and Canada's existing guns.

Air defense is made up of radar guided ZSU-23-2's to replace their Oerlikon guns, the Pantsir S1 to protect strategic long range SAM batteries, Tor M2 to protect armored columns from air attack, Buk M3 for defense of bases, industrial facilities and other areas of strategic importance, and the S-400 for national air defense.

Small arms will now be mostly Russian standard calibers but made in Canada, with possible development of an intermediate cartridge like the proposed 6.5x39mm. An AK variant like the AK-12 or AK-107 built by Diemaco for their standard assault rifle, PKP and the RPK-74M in the GPMG and SAW role, Kord HMG, AGS-30, PGW Timberwolf rifles in 7.62x54R and .338 Lapua with a 12.7x108mm variant as an anti-materiel rifle and 9mm pistol designed by a Canadian company like Para-Ordonnance. The PP-2000 is their standard SMG with the AN-94 and AS Val for use by special forces, GP-30 for use with assault rifles and the RG-6 to occupy the same role as the Milkor MGL.

AT weapons include the RPG-28 and RPG-32 to replace the AT4, AT-14 Kornet to replace the TOW and the 9M123 mounted on BMP-3 based tank destroyers.

Air Force:
The Su-35S is their standard air superiority fighter and is built in Canada by Bombardier Defense along with its associated weapons. They are jointly developing a version of the PAK-FA with Sukhoi for the RCAF which will be built in Canada and is expected to enter service around 2020.

The Su-34 is their tactical bomber and long range strike aircraft and is also built by Bombardier. A stealthy PAK-FA based strike aircraft is in development as an eventual replacement. A joint development between Bombardier and UAC was also created to make a CAS aircraft to replace the Su-25.

The Yak-130 is their standard jet trainer replacing the Hawk and Bombardier is developing a replacement for the PC-7.

Antonov and Bombardier have formed a partnership to build and supply the AN-32, AN-70 and AN-124 for the RCAF. They use Canadian engines, modern avionics and largely composite construction. This partnership has been extended to include the CSeries airliners as well which will be used as MPA, AWACS and tankers but while these are under development A310's will be used as tankers and AWACS and the Dash-8 MPA's will be used as interm aircraft.

The Mi-38 is their standard utility helicopter and is built by Bombardier Rotorcraft with Canadian engines and avionics, the Mi-28 is their attack helicopter with similar modifications and Mil and Bombardier are developing a heavy lift helicopter to replace the Mi-26 in Russia and the CH-47 in Canada. The Ansat is used for scout and recon roles.

Navy:
Canadian shipbuilding companies have been contracted to develop a new class of destroyer and frigate to replace their existing vessels. The destroyers are expected to be armed with a naval 2S35, S-400 and SS-N-27 Sizzler family of missiles, AK-630M-2 CIWS and Naval Tor-M2 point defense missiles. The frigates are expected to use a naval 130mm gun, Naval Buk-M3, Kashtan CIWS, SS-N-27 Sizzler family and Type 65 torpedoes.

Joint production of the Lada class SSK's has commenced to replace their Victoria's and joint development of a SSN based on the Borei class has started.
 
It would maybe cause butterflies, but if Russia kept Alaska they could have more influence over Canada.
 
I did talk to a Canadian soldier about why we purchase the more expensive Leopard tanks when we could have bought the cheaper T-72 series and he said that the T-series are mass produced junk.
 
1) You can't butterfly away the Cold War.

Even Pierre Trudeau, generally considered to be the most anti-American modern PM(apart from maybe Diefenbaker), was, in the final analysis, a Cold Warrior, on the side of the west. I can't find them now, but there are a few quotes where he makes it clear that he regards the Soviet Union as a threat which must be confronted, and that the west was on the side of freedom.

It's true he liked to portray himself as Mr. Detente and Not-Being-Led-Around-By-The-Americans, but when push came to shove, he never seriously entertained pulling Canada out of NATO, and publically defended the testing of American cruise-missiles in Canada.

So yes, I agree with those who say that Canada is unlikely to have made arms-deals with the Soviets during the Cold War. In the unlikely event of Canada going neutral, I think the most probably scenario(as stated by others) would be for the country to develop a Swedish-style domestic defence industry.
 
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NothingNow

Banned
So yes, I agree with those who say that Canada is unlikely to have made arms-deals with the Soviets during the Cold War. In the unlikely event of Canada going neutral, I think the most probably scenario(as stated by others) would be for the country to develop a Swedish-style domestic defence industry.
And/or buy from the Swedes, with a lot of joint projects, probably AEW&C aircraft and the like.
They might import Soviet missiles if they aren't crap.

It's also probably the greatest POD ever for saving the Avro Arrow.
 

Hoist40

Banned
What else would they have?

After the Canadian Revolution in 1959 and the overthrow of the Diefenbaker regime, the Mackenzie brothers, Fidel and Raoul fearing US intervention aligned with the Soviets and received huge amounts of Soviet equipment.
 
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