CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
Exactly what it says on the tin. With a PoD anytime after 1800, have Canada split into 3 or more dominions.
AHC: Canada split into 3+ dominions
- Thread starter CthulhuFhtagn
- Start date
Hmm not sure how to achieve three dominions...
Newfoundland and Labradour could be one, possibly them getting New Brunwick and some the Canada's northern islands.
A larger Quebec could be another one if the French speaking population was larger.
The third could be called something like British Columbia or a different name.
Give me a few minutes I will create a map.
Newfoundland and Labradour could be one, possibly them getting New Brunwick and some the Canada's northern islands.
A larger Quebec could be another one if the French speaking population was larger.
The third could be called something like British Columbia or a different name.
Give me a few minutes I will create a map.
Last edited:
Here is a rough version of what three Canada's dominions might be. Yes the map is rushed before some comment.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sy2tjnnu03sm7ul/Three%20canadas.png?dl=0
EDIT: Won't let image be displayed so link to where the file is on dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sy2tjnnu03sm7ul/Three%20canadas.png?dl=0
EDIT: Won't let image be displayed so link to where the file is on dropbox
TFSmith121
Banned
Acadia (Maritimes), Canada (Francophone Lower), and
Acadia (Maritimes), Canada (Francophone Lower), and British Canada (Anglophone Upper and points west).
The divide is that Confederation fails in '67, the French demand their own special status within the Empire (absent of which, they walk and dare the British to do something about it) and Upper Canada and the Maritimes federate separately, given the obvious geographic issue.
Federation of settler states essentially at London's urging was not a guaranteed success - obviously, didn't really work in South Africa they first time they tried it, and BNA certainly displays some of the same potential fractures. Australia, not so much, and they were a long way from anywhere.
Not quite the same in South Africa or BNA.
Best,
Acadia (Maritimes), Canada (Francophone Lower), and British Canada (Anglophone Upper and points west).
The divide is that Confederation fails in '67, the French demand their own special status within the Empire (absent of which, they walk and dare the British to do something about it) and Upper Canada and the Maritimes federate separately, given the obvious geographic issue.
Federation of settler states essentially at London's urging was not a guaranteed success - obviously, didn't really work in South Africa they first time they tried it, and BNA certainly displays some of the same potential fractures. Australia, not so much, and they were a long way from anywhere.
Not quite the same in South Africa or BNA.
Best,
TFSmith121
Banned
Might give the whole of Labrador to the Francophones
Might give the whole of Labrador to the Francophones; it's not like there was much there in the 1860s and gives the "Maritime" dominion obvious borders, with no continental entanglements.
Nice map.
Best,
Might give the whole of Labrador to the Francophones; it's not like there was much there in the 1860s and gives the "Maritime" dominion obvious borders, with no continental entanglements.
Nice map.
Best,
Cheers for the Compliment but without Labrador and, through Labrador, the northern isles then Newfoundland is quite small and less likely to be able to go off on their own, Labradour and the northern isles gives them the size and resources, including greater rights to the Great Banks to be able to be taken seriously as a large dominion. Plus don't think the UK government will be comfortable with a large French speaking dominion next to a small and seemingly weaker English speaking dominion.
Silly in logic but politics and pride are the bane of logic.
TFSmith121
Banned
But with a larger and stronger "English" dominion to the west
But with a larger and stronger "English" dominion to the west .. after all, these are not independent republics, but happy members of the Empah!
I guess the closest equivalent among the settler dominions would be Australia and New Zealand.
An alternative is a "Canada et Acadie" of Lower Canada/Canada East/Quebec and the Maritimes.
And "British Canada" to the west.
That's only two, however.
Best,
But with a larger and stronger "English" dominion to the west .. after all, these are not independent republics, but happy members of the Empah!
I guess the closest equivalent among the settler dominions would be Australia and New Zealand.
An alternative is a "Canada et Acadie" of Lower Canada/Canada East/Quebec and the Maritimes.
And "British Canada" to the west.
That's only two, however.
Best,
To be honest, I think 4 dominions is more likely than three. If the POD is that the union of upper and lower Canada fails, then you've got *Ontario and *Quebec already separate. The Maritimes have no reason to join either Ontario or Quebec without the other and would probably form a dominion of their own (with or without newfoundland). But I don't think there's any reason for BC or the other western provinces to join with Ontario. Since Ontario has no east coast port there's no longer the possibility of a transcontinental railroad within a single dominion. It's really only the promise of a railroad that convinced BC to join, so without confederation, BC would probably end up on its own. The prairies would end up divided between *Ontario and *BC
TFSmith121
Banned
Sounds like Cape, Natal, Transvaal, and the Vrystaat...
Sounds like Cape, Natal, Transvaal, and the Vrystaat...
At some point, the economic ties are going to be more north-south than east-west, and a *Ontario without any useful access to the Atlantic kind of suggests Paraguay or Bolivia in terms of international trade.
Best,
Sounds like Cape, Natal, Transvaal, and the Vrystaat...
At some point, the economic ties are going to be more north-south than east-west, and a *Ontario without any useful access to the Atlantic kind of suggests Paraguay or Bolivia in terms of international trade.
Best,
Good point about the railway. The railway was the primary reason that British Columbia joined Confederation. Without the railway there was no direct line of communication with the rest of Canada. Without the revenue from loading prairie wheat onto ships, the port of Vancouver would remain insignificant.
Also consider that the railway was financed by land sales. The federal gov't gave the railway millions of acres along the right of way. The railway promptly sold those acres to farmer/immigrants. Without a railway, the prairie provinces would be almost vacant.
The railway also allowed Upper Canada/Ontario access to European markets via the ice-free port of Halifax. Before the Saint Lawrence Seaway was dug (1950s), ocean-going vessels could only sail as far as Montreal -during the summer shipping season. Then they had to break bulk to load cargo onto vessels small enough to pass through the Lachine Canal to gain access to the Great Lakes.
Finally, "Acadian" is a French dialect spoken along the coasts of Nova Scotia, PEI and the south coast of New Brunswick. Acadian is distinct from the Québécois dialects spoken in Northern New Brunswick. After they backed the losing side in the American Revolutionary War, english-speaking, United Empire Loyalists were forced to flee to British Colonies. UEL grabbed all the best farmland in PEI, central New Brunswick and the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia. UEL displaced (earlier settlers) Acadian to re-settle on marginal farmlands, swamps, forests and the less-prosperous fishing villages.
Also consider that the railway was financed by land sales. The federal gov't gave the railway millions of acres along the right of way. The railway promptly sold those acres to farmer/immigrants. Without a railway, the prairie provinces would be almost vacant.
The railway also allowed Upper Canada/Ontario access to European markets via the ice-free port of Halifax. Before the Saint Lawrence Seaway was dug (1950s), ocean-going vessels could only sail as far as Montreal -during the summer shipping season. Then they had to break bulk to load cargo onto vessels small enough to pass through the Lachine Canal to gain access to the Great Lakes.
Finally, "Acadian" is a French dialect spoken along the coasts of Nova Scotia, PEI and the south coast of New Brunswick. Acadian is distinct from the Québécois dialects spoken in Northern New Brunswick. After they backed the losing side in the American Revolutionary War, english-speaking, United Empire Loyalists were forced to flee to British Colonies. UEL grabbed all the best farmland in PEI, central New Brunswick and the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia. UEL displaced (earlier settlers) Acadian to re-settle on marginal farmlands, swamps, forests and the less-prosperous fishing villages.
TFSmith121
Banned
I offered Acadie/Acadia as something for the Maritimes
I offered Acadie/Acadia as something for the Maritimes other than the "Federation of Eastern Canada" or the "Commonwealth of NovaBrunswickslandIsland"...
IIRC, one of the three capital ships Borden wanted Canada to fund before WW I was to be christened HMS Acadia... there is something vaguely poetic about it, like Britannia or Columbia.
What are the alternatives? Norumbega? Hochelaga? Greater East White North? NewfiePlusland?
Best,
I offered Acadie/Acadia as something for the Maritimes other than the "Federation of Eastern Canada" or the "Commonwealth of NovaBrunswickslandIsland"...
IIRC, one of the three capital ships Borden wanted Canada to fund before WW I was to be christened HMS Acadia... there is something vaguely poetic about it, like Britannia or Columbia.
What are the alternatives? Norumbega? Hochelaga? Greater East White North? NewfiePlusland?
Best,
Realistically you'd need to take away the icentive for unification which had been building up since 1840 for anything less than total unification but it's plausible to do this.
Obviously you would need to have the negotiations 1864 negotiations in Quebec fail, and this would probay lead to the Martimes forming separately into a union of their own (which would include Newfoundland most likely since they never seemed to have opposed the Maritime Union plan). This leaves the Province of Canada as another probable dominion, which leaves British Columbia as the next probable one. That leaves the plains in limbo, but since either side would have to build a railroad to settle them, a union would be forthcoming simply for economic reasons.
But BC, Canada, and the Maritimes are the only incredibly probable dominions that could come into being.
Obviously you would need to have the negotiations 1864 negotiations in Quebec fail, and this would probay lead to the Martimes forming separately into a union of their own (which would include Newfoundland most likely since they never seemed to have opposed the Maritime Union plan). This leaves the Province of Canada as another probable dominion, which leaves British Columbia as the next probable one. That leaves the plains in limbo, but since either side would have to build a railroad to settle them, a union would be forthcoming simply for economic reasons.
But BC, Canada, and the Maritimes are the only incredibly probable dominions that could come into being.
Wouldnt BC end up becoming american? When confederation was being drummed up the main sales pitch for BC to join was a rail way connection.
Another thing consider is that BC's government was in serious debt during the period of confederation it was a major motivator for the colony to join Canada. Without a central gov to take on that debt people might just turn to the US.
Another thing consider is that BC's government was in serious debt during the period of confederation it was a major motivator for the colony to join Canada. Without a central gov to take on that debt people might just turn to the US.
It's somewhat plausible, but only in a select few circumstances. If say total dominion in the east fails, the most likely action of the United Province of Canada is to look westward and begin courting BC. Britain might be willing to push for such a union (and the HBC is still more likely to sell to Canada than the US) so union between the two remains a possibility.
However, should all that fail then the most likely outcome would be that BC would move to join the US by the 1870s lacking a deal with Canada.