AHC: Byzantine restauration in the 18th cent.

This idea came to me while reading on the history of the Maratha Empire in the Indian Subcontinent. Basically they shattered the Mughals and created a huge Hindu Empire in the 1700's only to be finally subdued by the British.

So I asked myself: what conditions would be necessary in order that something similar to what happened to the Mughals would happen to the Ottomans. For some reason the Ottomans break apart and slowly a lot of their territories are conquered by a Greek-Orthodox (i.e., "Rum", they would obviously will not be all ethnically Greek in the modern sense) dynasty in the 18th century, similar to how the Marathas managed to liberate (or is it "liberate"?) a whole lot of India.

Here's the problems. The geopolitics of the Indian Subcontinent are vastly different from Anatolia and the Balkans. Basically often shifting borders is not such a new thing in South Asia, because the geographic barriers are not enough to (completely) block invaders. On the other hand Anatolia and the Balkans are quite the impregnable fortresses, but it might be done.

In OTL Anatolia (the Asian side of Turkey up to the Taurus and Antitaurus Mountains; it includes Cappadocia, Kayseri and the Black Sea region, but excludes the regions further East, specifically the N Mesopotamian Plains; the Adana region is not geographically included, but we'll consider it part of Anatolia proper for expediency's sake) the Greek-Orthodox population ("Rum Milleti", often speaking Turkish, or Laz, or Amerian or Greek languages other than Demotic such as Cappadocian or Pontic; there were also Vlachs and Bulgarians in Anatolia) was at about or just below 30%. Or at least in the 15th century it was so. By the 1910's it dropped to about 18%.

In OTL Balkans, in the late 1800's, the Muslim population was a little above 40%, but I guess historically it had been lower.

So here's the challange: Have, in the 18th century, a Greek-Orthodox power native to the Balkans or Anatolia (created, perhaps, through some kind of revolt) or even the Danubian Principalities take over the Eastern Balkans, part of Greece and all of Anatolia including Cappadocia, Pontus and the Adana Region. (I'm not interested in the desert of Mesopotamia east of Kayseri or in the useless mountains of the western Balkans like Bosnia or Albania or Epirus or such.)

If you include something about the Prut River Campaign or the Patrona Halil revolt, great. If you include much chaos on the Ottoman side and perhaps and alt-Muhammad Ali type of Pasha revolting, great. (I was asking myself if some Yeniceri rebel exterminating the House of Osman might do the trick of breaking the whole thing apart. The Girays might not be accepted by everyone... Then again, one can never underestimate the admittedly corrupt but still formidable Ottoman bureaucracy - the Mughals had nothing of the sort, to my knowledge.)

You are allowed to play with demographics - I like that sort of thing. You can have a secondary much earlier POD which results in higher number of Orthodox people in Anatolia and lower number of Muslims in the Balkans. You could also have an alt-Great Serb Migration fleeing Catholics and not the Turks, and migrating into Anatolia instead of S Hungary. Or any other crazy idea. The whole thing is pretty crazy to begin with. (The idea is, after the thing is stable in the late 18th century there would be some Anatolian Highland Clearances. Perhaps after another war whith whatever Muslim power is left east, in mid 19th century the new Byzantines might try on the remaining Anatolian Turks what the Russians did to the Circassians. This is very unfortunate, but I'm not sure it can be avoided for a full restauration. In any event, it is fortunate that we're only going to look for now into the events up until the alt-Napoleonic Wars.)

I haven't though of what would happen after nationalism kicks in. Everyone will probably not be hellenised. But then again, with diverse enough populations... (all Jews in Israel speak the previously dead Hebrew so who knows what could be done -- if not perhaps there would be Bulgarian Nationalist revolts in Ankara in late 19th century...)
 

Deleted member 67076

Just have the Russo-Turkish War of Catherine the great force an 1877 style peace on the Ottomans while the Orlev Revolt causes a successful Greek State to emerge based in Crete, the Aegean and the Peloponnese. From then over the next century the Greeks, backed by the Russians can take more and more of the Ottomans until they've essentially re-created the Byzantine empire.
 
I think the Greek Plan might be a bit late for my timeframe. I was thinking by the 1780's the thing is pretty much over.

In any case the Greek Plan makes for a very interesting scenario but unfortunately it's a Russia-wins-all scenario (which could be fun nevertheless). It isn't a native-Orthodox-populations-revolt kind of thing. I don't want to end up with an alt-Greece, basically a colony to either the Russians or the Brits. This is why I think this thing need to happen over the first half and perhaps middle of the 18th century.

Anyway it might be the case that the only way to do it is to somehow deal a deadly blow to the Ottoman state - like the loss of their Dynasty in some chaotic mutiny.

In any case, even if the chaos starts in the 1730's or so, probably a lot of the Balkans would be taken over by someone out of Albania or Bosnia, so an alt-Orlov Revolt might still happen. Quick note though: Crete, the Aegean and the Peloponessus aren't great geopolitical positions. You'd have better chances with Wallachia.


This is why I think the events need to start more towards the beginning of the 18th cent.
 
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Handwavy is fine. I can work with handwavy. Good stuff all around, thanks.

What if the Ottoman Civil war gets prolonged and the sides multiply. Perhaps at first the sides will have their own Ottoman Princes to prop up. At some point all Ottomans (Princes) will die and you might have pretenders (I really think all Ottomans dieing will seriously destabilise the Ottoman state), plus a few Girays, plus some alt-Muhammad Ali and some alt-Ali Pasha of Yannina. Further down the road there will be such chaos that the only power in Western Anatolia will be local Zeybeks and whatever Klephts/Armatoloi local Greeks can organise.

Or perhaps at some point some renegade band of soldiers crosses over and wreaks some havok, some modern day Catalan company... Perhaps a Saxon company or some renegade Yeniceri. Perhaps someone takes over Gallipoli and/or Canakkale because of a freak incident (similar to the earthquake that initially got the Ottomans into Gallipoli way back during Orhan).
 
err the reason the greeks chose not to go with byzantium was because at time in the west hellenic greece was in the rage and the greek leaders believed that they could win sympathy from the west by portraying themselves as philhellenes.

Finnally Byzantium in the 18th century had negative connotations and was viewed as a backward, decadent, and corrupt and inefficent empire in the west.
 
Respectfully, no... Philhellenism emerges at the turn of the 19th century. And when they revolted the Greeks didn't "go with" one thing or another, they were Rhomaioi, which, at the turn of the 19th century also came to mean "Greeks, the descendants of ancient Greeks".

In the beginning of the 18th century this is simply not an issue yet. Everyone is "Rum Milleti". In OTL by the 1760's the Archbishoprics of Pec and Ohrid are formally dismantled but they had been de facto done with for some time. At this point Slavic-speakers of many stripes and Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs and whatever will view any Greek-Orthodox state as their own. They might oppose the faction in control of such state, but that's neither here nor there.

Finally, whatever Western historians at the time might have thought about the late Antiquity Byzantines was of no relevance whatsover to the very real Rumlar / Rhomaioi in the Ottoman Empire. Their concern was that they were under foreign rule. These Rumlar / Rhomaioi are called "Greeks" in the West by default. For a looong time even Slavic-speakers and Albanians are called such. If in the 1700's a state emerges around the Straits called "Vasileia ton Rhomaion", Western cartographers will simply call it the "Greek Empire/Kingdom" and be done with it.

Anyways it's not about the name - the name is not important at all. My Orthodox rebels, just like the actual Greek rebels, wouldn't set out specifically to remake Byzantium or Ancient Greece, they'll primarily seek out independance, land, and more land. Anyway one of the other reasons I'm seeking an early POD is to pre-empt some of the non-Greek nationalism that will emerge in these areas mid-19th century - but I guess this isn't terribly important, either.
 
Respectfully, no... Philhellenism emerges at the turn of the 19th century. And when they revolted the Greeks didn't "go with" one thing or another, they were Rhomaioi, which, at the turn of the 19th century also came to mean "Greeks, the descendants of ancient Greeks".

In the beginning of the 18th century this is simply not an issue yet. Everyone is "Rum Milleti". In OTL by the 1760's the Archbishoprics of Pec and Ohrid are formally
dismantled but they had been de facto done with for some time. At this point Slavic-speakers of many stripes and Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs and whatever will view any Greek-Orthodox state as their own. They might oppose the faction in control of such state, but that's neither here nor there.

Finally, whatever Western historians at the time might have thought about the late Antiquity Byzantines was of no relevance whatsover to the very real Rumlar / Rhomaioi in the Ottoman Empire. Their concern was that they were under foreign rule. These Rumlar / Rhomaioi are called "Greeks" in the West by default. For a looong time even Slavic-speakers and Albanians are called such. If in the 1700's a state emerges around the Straits called "Vasileia ton Rhomaion", Western cartographers will simply call it the "Greek Empire/Kingdom" and be done with it.

Anyways it's not about the name - the name is not important at all. My Orthodox rebels, just like the actual Greek rebels, wouldn't set out specifically to remake Byzantium or Ancient Greece, they'll primarily seek out independance, land, and more land. Anyway one of the other reasons I'm seeking an early POD is to pre-empt some of the non-Greek nationalism that will emerge in these areas mid-19th century - but I guess this isn't terribly important, either.
your right I misread the post. 18th century yeah might be possible. I wrote my post from a 19th century Greek independence war perspective
 
Ok. If you're interested in Byzantium or 17-18 cent. Greeks or both, do give this conversation a skim, should you like it. I'm still interested in your opinion, if this era is one you know about or like at all...

I just wanted to be clear on the name thing - no need to get bogged down in that.
 
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