AHC: British produced T-34

[Triune Kingdom]

I know that the British tested both T-34 and Kv-1 tanks, and were generally very pleased with their performance if this article is to be believed. Thing is, it seems that this testing occured in January 1944, so is it somehow possible to push that testing to a much earlier date, to 1942 if at all possible, thus increasing chances of British actually going forward with the production?

How to get T-34 in British hands much earlier then OTL, I do not know. Maybe greater cooperation between them on sharing the info on German vehicles and tactics, through some British observer or even some poor enterprising official who signs off on giving a T-34 to the British, and gets executed or sent to gulag/penal battalion for his trouble. It could be possible if the British really push for it, pointing out large quantities of weapons and other aid sent to the Soviets, and that they are only asking for a single tank, not hundreds of them, and if the Stalin has its back turned, perhaps that just may happen.

Would be a very interesting thing to see, if only for the photo of both British and Soviet T-34 tanks meeting up in Germany late in the war.

Thoughts?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Seen a secondary source the Brits inquired about purchasing Soviet made tanks, for use in Egypt. This is placed in very early 1941. If this is correct then the T34 may have been evaluated then vs later. More likely would be BT series tanks.

The US received a T34 & KV tank for evaluation in 1943. A translation of a Soviet army officers report on this evaluation can be found on line. The US engineers description is not favorable. Among other things the engine was a obsolecent design & the air filter worthess, The transmission badly built, serious manufactoring flaws were noted in the armor. The wide tracks we're favored.

In basic concept the T34 was a great tank for 1940. In 1943 it was aged in comparison to the new T20...T26 design of the US, or Centurion prototype in Britain.

As it was the Red Army accepted US M4 tanks and asked for more.

 

[StevoJH]

Pretty sure the biggest advantage of the T-34 is that there were 85,000 of them built (though some may have been remanufactured multiple times), not that the tank itself was particularly brilliant.

 

[BlondieBC]

I know that the British tested both T-34 and Kv-1 tanks, and were generally very pleased with their performance if this article is to be believed. Thing is, it seems that this testing occured in January 1944, so is it somehow possible to push that testing to a much earlier date, to 1942 if at all possible, thus increasing chances of British actually going forward with the production?

How to get T-34 in British hands much earlier then OTL, I do not know. Maybe greater cooperation between them on sharing the info on German vehicles and tactics, through some British observer or even some poor enterprising official who signs off on giving a T-34 to the British, and gets executed or sent to gulag/penal battalion for his trouble. It could be possible if the British really push for it, pointing out large quantities of weapons and other aid sent to the Soviets, and that they are only asking for a single tank, not hundreds of them, and if the Stalin has its back turned, perhaps that just may happen.

Would be a very interesting thing to see, if only for the photo of both British and Soviet T-34 tanks meeting up in Germany late in the war.

Thoughts?

T-34 is a modified USA design rejected by US Army. So instead of or in addition to, have the UK also build this design after paying an American a small licensing fee.

 

[marathag]

I know that the British tested both T-34 and Kv-1 tanks, and were generally very pleased with their performance if this article is to be believed. Thing is, it seems that this testing occured in January 1944, so is it somehow possible to push that testing to a much earlier date, to 1942 if at all possible, thus increasing chances of British actually going forward with the production?

one big problem, that effected design of UK armor
T-34/76 1941
Width 9 ft 10 in

 

[Alanith]

Have it designed and produced by Canada in 1939

Also you know, have it designed competently instead of "GLORIOUS SOVIET ENGINEERING". You know, with air filters and transmissions that won't explode after 80 miles.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Have it designed and produced by Canada in 1939

Also you know, have it designed competently instead of "GLORIOUS SOVIET ENGINEERING". You know, with air filters and transmissions that won't explode after 80 miles.

The prewar built T34 were well made. Other than the drive train selection they were good machines. The Germans were impressed by those they examined in 1941. It was the emergency basis for subsequent production that led to excessive defects.

 

[longsword14]

The Germans were impressed by those they examined in 1941.

The machine as a whole or simply the armor ?

 

[marathag]

Have it designed and produced by Canada in 1939

Also you know, have it designed competently instead of "GLORIOUS SOVIET ENGINEERING". You know, with air filters and transmissions that won't explode after 80 miles.

Massey-Harris and the other Tractor manufacturers in Canada knew how to make decent filtration and transmissions.

Do like the idea of twin GMC powered T-34 with the larger turret ring of the Ram I tank, so would get a three man turret sooner and having the Canadian version of the 76mmL/42 F-34 gun

 

[Triune Kingdom]

snip.

Well, US was not impressed, but according to article I have linked, British have thought it and KV-1 adequate for their needs. Changes mentioned in the article were:

a) the T-34 and KV vehicles will be produced for the British army. The former will be equipped with a 17-pounder, the latter with a 6 inch howitzer.
b) the tanks will be built with an improved gearbox and differential clutches.
c) the KV air pumps will be improved. [Note: the KV the British got had a defective air pump]
d) the tanks will be equipped with centrifugal air filters that will draw air from the transmission compartment. This is explained as follows: if you take air from behind the tank, it will contain dust kicked up by the tank. If you draw air from the transmission, the air purity reached is 100% ideal.
e) the welding will be performed with electrodes made from high hardness steel, which will result in welding seams being as robust as the armour plates.

As for the the age of the design, British do need tank right now, not in the last week of the war, or postwar. While Centurion is undoubtebly a superior tank, it came too late for WW2.

On the other hand, T-34 is a tank already in production, and while there will be obstacles to getting it into British hands and then into production in British factories, it would give British a decent tank, and while not without its flaws, it is still a decent design. And in regards to the flaws that were common with T-34s, and that some people have mentioned already, I do believe that many of them were result of rushed production and cutting corners in a effort to get as many tanks out as possible. Late and postwar versions had much less quality issues, and I do believe that British would not have any major problems putting it into production, and producing tanks of sufficient quality for the task ahead.

 

[marathag]

. Late and postwar versions had much less quality issues

There is an Aberdeen report on a T-34/85 captured in the Korean War, and it had it's own host of Q/C problems

 

[Triune Kingdom]

There is an Aberdeen report on a T-34/85 captured in the Korean War, and it had it's own host of Q/C problems

I did not say they had no problems at all.And do you perhaps have a link to that report, I would really like to see it?

 

[marathag]

I did not say they had no problems at all.And do you perhaps have a link to that report, I would really like to see it?

With some annoying redactions

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP81-01044R000100070001-4.pdf

 

[tomo pauk]

British-produced T-34 has some potentially good things, and some that were not (similar to, say, USSR-produced Spitfires), provided that it was produced from early 1942 at least.
Good points include the armor thickness and layout, dual-purpose cannon, low weight and low silhouette vs. armor and cannon it offered, growth potential with regard to installing a more potent cannon, turn of speed much better than of the Infantry tanks.
Reliablity was the issue, but probably not less reliable than any Cruiser tank before Comet.

 

[marathag]

Reliablity was the issue, but probably not less reliable than any Cruiser tank before Comet.

Better than anything with a Liberty. I'd put the Cromwell more than equal to the Sherman on reliability and mobility, but with less AP gunpower when it was introduced.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Better than anything with a Liberty. I'd put the Cromwell more than equal to the Sherman on reliability and mobility, but with less AP gunpower when it was introduced.

I thought the Cromwell had the 6 pounder gun when introduced?

Thats a better hole puncher than the US 75mm - although the US 75mm was a more useful gun overall which is why the British adapted their Cromwells and later Churchills with the Ordnance QF 75mm as they found better HE was preferred to better AP - which is perhaps your point?

On the subject of the T34/76 it was not that good of a tank - the later /85 addressed many of the issues but the Panzer III while 'on paper' appears to be inferior was actually a better tank than the T34/76 - and coupled with then better crews the panzers had resulted in the German tank dominating the Russian one.

This vid is quite well researched on the matter

Back to the OP - how long would it take to stand up production of the T34? 2 years? By that time the British have the Cromwell, later Churchill and access to US production of the excellent Sherman as well as the M10 and subsequent TDs - all in fairly large numbers

All the Wallied AFVs were built to a very high standard and with the exception of the criminally small hatches still being used on the Cromwell I would take any of them over a T34 /76 or /85

 

[tomo pauk]

Better than anything with a Liberty. I'd put the Cromwell more than equal to the Sherman on reliability and mobility, but with less AP gunpower when it was introduced.

There were worse engines in the Cruiser tanks than Liberty, to the point that several thousands of tanks were deemed unfit for combat.

...
On the subject of the T34/76 it was not that good of a tank - the later /85 addressed many of the issues but the Panzer III while 'on paper' appears to be inferior was actually a better tank than the T34/76 - and coupled with then better crews the panzers had resulted in the German tank dominating the Russian one.

This vid is quite well researched on the matter

German Pz-III with short 5cm was not dominating the T-34. If that was the case, we wouldn't see the Pz-III & -IV 'specials' (with long guns), Tiger I, II, Panther and whole series of SP AT guns.
The video, while well researched, does not point out anythig that it was known known decades ago - German medium tanks were noted for their user-friendly ness and reliability (even by the Soviets in ww2), while the T-34 was noted for it's dual-purpose cannon, good armor and maneuverability.
What the video fails to note was that tanks were not just used to fight other tanks, but also infatry in open and in fortified positions, and AT guns. The main German AT gun of 1941, 37mm, will struggle to harm T-34 at ranges greater than 100m, while the T-34 stand a good chance to harm it with it's HE shell. OTOH, the Soviet 45mm will stand good chance to kill Pz-III, while 5cm HE shell is not as dangerous, apart from direct hit. Let's recall that Soviets produced more than 100,000 76.2mm cannons, that will play havoc with Pz-III of any kind, and 5cm was no answer for those. That was acknowledged by Germans as such, and the last Pz-III version got the short 75mm.

Back to the OP - how long would it take to stand up production of the T34? 2 years? By that time the British have the Cromwell, later Churchill and access to US production of the excellent Sherman as well as the M10 and subsequent TDs - all in fairly large numbers

All the Wallied AFVs were built to a very high standard and with the exception of the criminally small hatches still being used on the Cromwell I would take any of them over a T34 /76 or /85

A 'very high standard' of production was noted also on German tanks. That does not excuse Western tanks of their failings/shortcomings, that each of those had. Many of those were not actually produced per 'very high standard' of production either.

 

[Tehshudge]

Have it designed and produced by Canada in 1939

Also you know, have it designed competently instead of "GLORIOUS SOVIET ENGINEERING". You know, with air filters and transmissions that won't explode after 80 miles.

Canuck/Brit built T-34s would be built with a much higher degree of lastability in mind because Soviet T-34s were made under the premise that most of them wouldn't last long enough for that to have been an issue. Conditions were very different in North Africa so parts would be made to last much longer.

 

[Triune Kingdom]

Presuming that T-34 is accepted into the British service, what modifications would be done to it to make it more suitable for British use/production methods?

Would the existing diesel engine be kept, or would it be replaced by something more suitable/availlable to British? Radios are a given, and I do not see British variants without them. Armament is also interesting, what would they put in place of the Russian F-34 gun? I presume that they would go with 6 pounder gun, with later models going with 75mm guns. Machineguna are relatively straightforward, just replace the DT MGs with BESA ones, and that is it.

To the British T-34 is more or less a (Heavy) Cruiser tank, so it would probably name it with something starting with letter C. Maybe if it is taken into service early enough, it recieves the name Cromwell, making the OTL vehicle stillborn. That name would also be somewhat appropriate, considering who Cromwell was, and from whom the British acquired the design.

Now all we need is someone to bash a few parts together, so we have something to look at.

 

[SwampTiger]

The British do not need to build the T-34. They can take the Crusader base, sponson the hull for a larger turret ring, switch the Liberty for a derated Peregrine or Kestrel, use an updated 13 pdr/18 pdr (13 pdr/9 cwt) gun, and widen the tracks. Tell Nuffield to build them or the government will assume control over the factories until the end of the war. After seeing the T-34, and US plans for their M4 design, the British realize they can build such a tank.