AHC: British Heavy Bombers used against Soviet Russia early forties

[merlin]

According to Goulding & Moyes authors of RAF Bomber Command 1936-1940 - ref Spec. B.12/36
p.42 "During Air Staff discussions formulating the requirements for the new Bomber, ponts arose regarding range and bomb load capability. The need for a range as much as 3,000 miles was questioned, but it was felt to be necessary in case Russia should prove to be a potential future aggressor. Early in 1936 the danger of the Third Reich, only three years after the seizure of power by Adolf Hitler, was yet to be appreciated and the area of any future operations of war was a matter of conjecture".
And p.44 "In 1936 some factions were pressing for disarmament. Some Right Wing factions saw Russia as the future enemy and favoured close ties with Germany. Few saw the Third Reich, only three years after the seizure of power by Hitler, as a big potential danger to Europe.

Brave words by the authors, but what various circumstances different to OTL will have Lancasters and Halifaxs in action against the Russians. And if so how effective would they be?

 

[Deleted member 9338]

Would they have been used to bomb the Russian oil fields in the South Caucasus?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Bomber Command should at least be able to find the Soviet Union, they should even be able to find Leningrad. Just fly along the Baltic's south coast and when it turns north you turn south.

 

[Just Leo]

According to Goulding & Moyes authors of RAF Bomber Command 1936-1940 - Early in 1936 the danger of the Third Reich, only three years after the seizure of power by Adolf Hitler, was yet to be appreciated and the area of any future operations of war was a matter of conjecture".
And p.44 "In 1936 some factions were pressing for disarmament. Some Right Wing factions saw Russia as the future enemy and favoured close ties with Germany. Few saw the Third Reich, only three years after the seizure of power by Hitler, as a big potential danger to Europe.

In 1935, Scheme C was implemented due to Hitler stating to Sir John Simon and Anthony Eden that the Luftwaffe had achieved parity with the RAF. This was quickly followed by Scheme F, as the Luftwaffe continued to grow. By 1936, Germany had certainly replaced France as the country to measure their air forces against. Opinions differ.

 

[merlin]

The French connection started in 1922 - when the Times revealed to its readers that the French Air Force had a force of 300 bombers and 300 fighters. To be opposed by just 40 aircraft - after post 1918 slashing of numbers. Strangely to use maybe - relations between the UK and France were not good, hence the shock of this realisation gave impetuous to the 1923 decision to create a Home defence Air Force of 52 squadrons; but this was soon wrecked by the ten year rule.
The Air Expansion Schemes were the start of redressing the disarmament excesses. Many people were (rightly) worried about German re-armament. However, that isn't the question.

 

[merlin]

I must admit I'm a bit surprised at the lack of interest, or maybe lack of imagination - note, for example, the thread doesn't say RAF just British!

Ones that spring to mind without too much thought:

Edward doesn't abdicate, stays King, Constitutional crisis only just averted with some Ministers resigning. While Parliament gives mixed support to the King, the general public are much more enthusiastic. British rearmament goes ahead, to correct the low levels. But foreign policy is less anti-German. In response German Naval expansion is less (leaving for the Army & Lw). Tepid support for Poland, no German Pact with Russia. Poland caves in, with pro-German government.
However shit hits the fan when Finland is attacked by Russia, public opinion inflamed by off-the-cuff remarks by the King. Situation further develops with attacks in the Baltic Countries - Germany sends troops to safeguard Memel. While the RAF send Squadrons - Hurricanes, Blenhiems and Wellingtons to Finland, who already operate British aircraft. The situation worsens the Germans in Memel are attacked, the RN assists with the evacuation. Meanwhile, in France anti-communist riots take place, offers of support are made. Consultations take place with the RAF and Lw - airfields are to be made available to RAF heavy bombers in Poland prior to the counter-attack!

Or, during the Battle of France - Churchill while on a flight to Paris is shot down, back in London chaos ensues. Attlee doesn't have enough support. Yet, while this is happening France is crumbling even faster without British moral support. Peace overtures are made with unseemly haste. Part of the British price, is the open to German inspection of British military facilities. This process, takes some time, with limited production allowed to continue. Meanwhile the politicians, realise with a sense of real politik if Germany is No 1, who is '2', who is '3' etc. Britain decides it certainly doesn't want to be No 4, reasons they have a strong bargaining position, the Germans have the best Army, France can't compete there, Britain has the best Navy, and they still believe a better Air Force than France, especially with the impending 'Heavies'.
So, when the struggle for Eastern Europe and beyond was to be decided - Hitler wasn't happy with the demands by Russia for bits of Rumania for example, the RN would assist in the Baltic, and the RAF Halifaxs and Stirlings would hit attack targets beyond the range of the He-111s.

Any more?

 

[thaddeus]

What If Germany and Italy decided to aid Stalin's naval ambitions (delusions) and put coin in their own pockets? (under the belief that it would be most foolish way for Soviets to be investing their resources?)

so construction starts on Soviet Sovetsky Soyuz-class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovetsky_Soyuz-class_battleship

so British confronted with Soviet class of 8 battleships and their entry as third member of Pact of Steel, what could they bomb to slow or stop this?

 

[GDIS Pathe]

What If Germany and Italy decided to aid Stalin's naval ambitions (delusions) and put coin in their own pockets? (under the belief that it would be most foolish way for Soviets to be investing their resources?)

so construction starts on Soviet Sovetsky Soyuz-class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovetsky_Soyuz-class_battleship

so British confronted with Soviet class of 8 battleships and their entry as third member of Pact of Steel, what could they bomb to slow or stop this?

Not happening just saying not nearly enough time to set up things to build BBs the Americans only built ten fast BBs and they had far better yards than the USSR

 

[Michele]

Way too easy. As it happens from time to time, we have actual OTL events that parallel or surpass the imagination of ATL proposals - or at least come very close, as in this case.

1. Operation Weserübung is more difficult than in OTL because the Allies do precede the Germans by a day or two. Eventually the Germans gain control of Norway, but their whole timetable is delayed one month.
2. The Short Stirling's first operational deployment begins some 6 months earlier than in OTL. In March 1940, one of the first Stirling Squadrons gets sent to Habbaniya.
3. In May 1940, the Germans have not attacked France yet, and the British and French planners launch Operation Pike. Of course they also use that Squadron on Stirlings.

Mission accomplished: British heavy bombers are used against the Soviet Union in the early forties.

 

[thaddeus]

What If Germany and Italy decided to aid Stalin's naval ambitions (delusions) and put coin in their own pockets? (under the belief that it would be most foolish way for Soviets to be investing their resources?)

so construction starts on Soviet Sovetsky Soyuz-class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovetsky_Soyuz-class_battleship

so British confronted with Soviet class of 8 battleships and their entry as third member of Pact of Steel, what could they bomb to slow or stop this?

Not happening just saying not nearly enough time to set up things to build BBs the Americans only built ten fast BBs and they had far better yards than the USSR

that was the point! that it would play into actual, historical plans of Stalin to somehow become naval power, but it would never work ... while tying up huge amount of Soviet resources.

AND might (probably?) be the action that would force Allied side to attack Soviets?

 

[GDIS Pathe]

that was the point! that it would play into actual, historical plans of Stalin to somehow become naval power, but it would never work ... while tying up huge amount of Soviet resources.

AND might (probably?) be the action that would force Allied side to attack Soviets?

The Soviets cannot physically build 8 battleships they might might get one that's it they can't build more because there is no yard space there is no way they can or will complete those ships in time

 

[thaddeus]

The Soviets cannot physically build 8 battleships they might might get one that's it they can't build more because there is no yard space there is no way they can or will complete those ships in time

that is irrelevant whether they complete even one, my point was what would provoke British bombing USSR (from the OP) and my hypothetical is Soviets launching a naval building program, not that the British would try to bomb and sink the ships, that such a program would cause they to finally attack the USSR.

bombing most probably the oilfields around Baku.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

that is irrelevant whether they complete even one, my point was what would provoke British bombing USSR (from the OP) and my hypothetical is Soviets launching a naval building program, not that the British would try to bomb and sink the ships, that such a program would cause they to finally attack the USSR.

bombing most probably the oilfields around Baku.

Why the fuck would the Brits care? The Soviets aren't gonna be contesting them anytime soon going to war with them is a waste of resources.