AHC Britian and France join the ACW

Saphroneth

Banned
Delaware river system

The big fort here is Fort Delaware - if this is reduced then frigates, then sloops, then gunboats can range far upriver and take out anything worth attacking. The other forts incl. DuPont are not started, and one is ruined.


Fort Delaware has, in an ideal situation, 5 10" Columbiad guns of which at most three can bear at a time and 22 8" Columbiad guns. This is a credible armament, especially since the river's too shallow (21 feet at low tide, note) for ships of the line - though note that the fort is technically possible to engage from the "wrong" side and that only a few of these guns are under cover. Most are in barbettes.
But I'll use the ideal situation.


Going back to the list of ships on NA&WI, I've already used the Liffey + Mersey + Ariadne. This means viable ships are the Orlando, Phaeton, Diadem, Cadmus, Challenger, Jason, Orpheus, Melpomene and Immortalite. Hero and Edgar have a depth of 21'8" which is enough outside low tide. (Note that the frigates from the NY attack could be shifted here in exchange for a few more liners going there.)
(NOTE: some of the super frigates have a deeper draught than ships of the line. Mea culpa! Assume they're replaced by Hero, Edgar etc., or attack at high tide)

Broadsides
Orlando
6 8" shell guns
14 10" shell guns
Phaeton
25 guns (unknown, 32 lber?)
Diadem
10 10"
5 32-lber
Cadmus
10 8" guns
1 10" gun
Challenger
10 8" guns
1 10" gun
Jason
10 8" guns
1 7" RBL
Orpheus
10 8" guns
1 7" RBL
Immortalite
15 8"
1 68 lber
10 32 lber
Melpomene
15 8"
1 68 lber
10 32 lber

Totals
26 10"
76 8"
2 7" RBL
2 68 lber
50 32 lber

This seems quite adequate - there's four times as many heavy shell guns as the fort can engage this little fleet with total, and nine ships to split up the fire of the fort. It may not even be necessary to bring a floating battery - a floating battery would of course make short work of the fort.



The British can thus reduce this fort and get up the Delaware concurrently with reducing New York, though realistically they'd probably do them consecutively.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
Trent Affair British ships - both known planned reinforcements and ships on station - and their armament. One broadside listed.
In some cases I've had to guess if one heavy gun engages on each side or if both are mounted on swivels. For the smaller ships I've generally assumed swivels; for the larger, one a side.

Initial:

Terror
8 68-lber
Nile
45 32-lber
1 68-lber
Conqueror (OTL wrecked 26/12/1861)
18 8"
32 32-lber
1 68-lber
Donegal
18 8"
32 32-lber
1 68-lber
St George
1 68-lber
57 32-lber
2 18-lber
Aboukir
2 68-lber
39 32-lber
4 8"
Agamemnon
17 8"
28 32-lber
1 68-lber
Edgar
18 8"
27 32-lber
1 68-lber
Hero
18 8"
27 32-lber
1 68-lber
Sans Pareil
3 8"
32 32-lber
Liffey
15 8" shell guns
10 32-lber
1 68-lber
Orlando
6 8" shell guns
14 10" shell guns
Phaeton
25 guns (unknown, 32 lber?)
Diadem
10 10"
5 32-lber
Cadmus
10 8" guns
1 10" gun
Challenger
10 8" guns
1 10" gun
Jason
10 8" guns
1 7" RBL
Orpheus
10 8" guns
1 7" RBL
Immortalite
15 8"
1 68 lber
10 32 lber
Melpomene
15 8"
1 68 lber
10 32 lber
Mersey
6 8" shell guns
14 10" shell guns
Ariadne
12 10" shell guns
2 68-lber
Greyhound
3? 40-lber RBL
6 32-lber
Rinaldo
3? 40-lber RBL
6 32-lber
Racer
6 32-lber
Peterel
1 40-lber RBL
3 32-lber
2 20-lber RBL
Desperate
1 68-lber
3 8"
1 10"
Barracouta
1 68-lber
1 10"
2 32-lber
Bulldog
3 unknown guns
Hydra
1 32-lber
1 8"
Medea
1 10", 1 12-lber
Spiteful
1 110-lber
1 68-lber
2 32-lber
Styx
1 110-lber
1 68-lber
2 32-lber
Cygnet
1 68-lber
1 24-lber
1 20-lber
Landrail
1 68-lber
1 24-lber
1 20-lber
Nimble
1 68-lber
1 24-lber
1 20-lber
Steady
1 68-lber
1 24-lber
1 20-lber
Nettle
1 32-lber
Onyx
1 32-lber
Medusa
1 6-lber

Reinforcements
James Watt
18 8"
27 32-lber
1 68-lber
Algiers
16 8"
29 32-lber
1 68-lber
Queen
15 8"
27 32-lber
1 68-lber
Amphion
3 8"
14 32-lber
2 68-lber
Firebrand
4 8"
Alcarity
1 110-lber
1 68-lber
Foxhound
1 110-lber
1 68-lber
Warrior
13 68-lber
5 110-lber RBL
2 40-lber RBL
Defence(?)
5 68-lber
4 110-lber RBL
2 40-lber RBL





There's actually a heck of a lot of some very large guns - all those 68-lber swivels do add up. I make it that the broadsides of the already-in-America forces include
30 68-lber with another 25 on the way
2 110-lber with 11 on the way
197 8" with 56 on the way
55 10"
And a staggering 409 32-lbers with 97 more on the way.


(I would not like to be in a fort with 252 heavy shell guns bombarding me! Especially if most of the guns were en barbette.)
 
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All of the numbers and speculation posted assumes between the US receiving a declaration of war and the arrival of British warships that the US would take no action to reinforce any of these locations. Given that it has been well-established that as of early 1862 the US had huge numbers of artillery in storage and fit for use plus the personnel to man them it would be very unrealistic to assume any of the locations listed as easily taken would, in fact, be easy targets for any naval assault by the British. This is even more unlikely given that, unlike any Royal Navy assault, all US reinforcement would be coming rapidly by rail and be in place far earlier than any British/French naval assault could be mustered and in place.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
All of the numbers and speculation posted assumes between the US receiving a declaration of war and the arrival of British warships that the US would take no action to reinforce any of these locations. Given that it has been well-established that as of early 1862 the US had huge numbers of artillery in storage and fit for use plus the personnel to man them it would be very unrealistic to assume any of the locations listed as easily taken would, in fact, be easy targets for any naval assault by the British. This is even more unlikely given that, unlike any Royal Navy assault, all US reinforcement would be coming rapidly by rail and be in place far earlier than any British/French naval assault could be mustered and in place.
But in some cases (New York), the casemates are actually full - or the forts are complete.
In other cases the coastal artillery reserve went to fortify Washington.

And even if some of these were completely full, I'm still not sure they can stand up to the full might of the NA&WI fleet.

The US needs to build new forts to hold out successfully... and what makes it worse is that they OTL didn't do all this in the month of elevated tension. Boston was as naked after Trent as before.



Incidentally, you might want to consider how hard it is to mount (say) an 11" Rodman gun, which weighs several tons, in a fort. It's a major engineering effort per gun.

Please understand - what I'm saying is that, given the complete lack of engineering improvement that took place OTL, the US would have to mount a massive engineering effort and probably build entirely new forts if they want to stop the RN just literally sailing into New York and blowing up all their under-construction ships and shipyards.

What forts do you think should be up gunned to protect the NY narrows?



ED:
There's two further points to consider.
One of them is that the British do actually have several other ironclads they can bring in if the forts are harder to reduce. Terror can be joined by Thunderbolt, Aetna, Erebus, Glatton, Thunder and Trusty, as well as Warrior, Defence, Black Prince and Resistance (by summer 1862).

And the other is that the quality of the guns in storage matters a lot. 11" Dahlgrens/Rodmans are reasonable coast defence weapons, 8" shell firing guns are less so, 32-lbers are even smaller and 24-lbers are smaller than most of the guns in the NA&WI squadron... but the 11" pieces are the heaviest of the lot and require specially large barbette mountings. (Fort Delaware has as many as it can mount.) Flank howitzers are for land defence.



Now, the guns in storage at Narragansett bay number 140, so they're 1/4 of the total guns in storage. Of those, they're

48 flank howitzers (34%)
77 32-lbers (55%)
15 24-lbers (11%)

So no heavier guns there. And if they were all mounted in the same place (and remember that you need to have a fort to mount these in), they'd have the firepower of about two second-rates (92 guns total, so the equivalent of 2 46-gun broadsides) from before the shell gun revolution.
 
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But in some cases (New York), the casemates are actually full - or the forts are complete.
In other cases the coastal artillery reserve went to fortify Washington.

And even if some of these were completely full, I'm still not sure they can stand up to the full might of the NA&WI fleet.

The US needs to build new forts to hold out successfully... and what makes it worse is that they OTL didn't do all this in the month of elevated tension. Boston was as naked after Trent as before.



Incidentally, you might want to consider how hard it is to mount (say) an 11" Rodman gun, which weighs several tons, in a fort. It's a major engineering effort per gun.

Please understand - what I'm saying is that, given the complete lack of engineering improvement that took place OTL, the US would have to mount a massive engineering effort and probably build entirely new forts if they want to stop the RN just literally sailing into New York and blowing up all their under-construction ships and shipyards.

What forts do you think should be up gunned to protect the NY narrows?

the general approach to hurriedly enlarge or expand a fort is to use bastions and in this era, they used a lot of earth or sand, which actually is more shell and shot proof then the hardened bricks in the old forts. Fort Fisher is an outstanding example of this. You are also assuming that no blockships or obstructions are placed in the approaches, that no batteries are constructed to cover them, that no US warships are pulled from blockade duty (which is clearly hopeless at this point) and pulled back to the ports to help defend them in the interim, and that no one thinks of placing naval mines (then called torpedoes) into use early which is not crazy considering that the Russians used them heavily in the Crimean War and this was known to all sides in this conflict.

In order to determine how fast everyone moves, we would need to know the specific date that hostilities are viewed as highly likely (as this controls when forces start to assemble), how quickly forces can be assembled, and in the case of British warships, some of these are not immediately available as they are on foreign station, OR will need time to prepare for war in terms of assembling crews etc. In addition, there is the time frames needed to assemble these forces at their forward base, stock the forward bases with the need supplies for extended operations, and finally of course steaming time to attack.

This is not days, nor even a couple of weeks. This is at least 2-4 months depending on how quickly decisions are made to assemble forces and go to war, communicate those instructions, and of course carry them out. This is plenty of time to move all of the Union ships to support their home bases, assemble reserves to repel any amphibious landing forces or contain them, and of course to build earthworks and assemble and man artillery and sink blockships and place obstructions.

This is a high risk move you are proposing for the RN, and as stated before, in OTL ACW of the 4 attempts, it worked twice and failed twice. I spelled out the conditions that made Mobile Bay and New Orleans vulnerable (their forts could only be supplied by water and once isolated by the attack force had to surrender), while Fort Fisher and Charleston held out for months (Fort Fisher) and years (Charleston). Both fell because the South collapsed more than any other reason.

Admiral Milne and others, not being idiots, are well aware of these factors and I cannot see them urging such a high risk operation and only carrying it out if directly ordered to. As far as the British are concerned, just ending the blockade inflicts a major blow to the United States and doesn't even require risking a ship or a sailor.

So again, what are the advantages to the British in this kind of high stakes move that justify the risk involved and also so massively makes this war less a limited war to force the Americans to recognize British neutral rights and more a war to the hilt?

You have not explained your reasoning why they would try this... lists of ships and guns are not an argument.
 
the general approach to hurriedly enlarge or expand a fort is to use bastions and in this era, they used a lot of earth or sand, which actually is more shell and shot proof then the hardened bricks in the old forts. Fort Fisher is an outstanding example of this. You are also assuming that no blockships or obstructions are placed in the approaches, that no batteries are constructed to cover them, that no US warships are pulled from blockade duty (which is clearly hopeless at this point) and pulled back to the ports to help defend them in the interim, and that no one thinks of placing naval mines (then called torpedoes) into use early which is not crazy considering that the Russians used them heavily in the Crimean War and this was known to all sides in this conflict.

In order to determine how fast everyone moves, we would need to know the specific date that hostilities are viewed as highly likely (as this controls when forces start to assemble), how quickly forces can be assembled, and in the case of British warships, some of these are not immediately available as they are on foreign station, OR will need time to prepare for war in terms of assembling crews etc. In addition, there is the time frames needed to assemble these forces at their forward base, stock the forward bases with the need supplies for extended operations, and finally of course steaming time to attack.

This is not days, nor even a couple of weeks. This is at least 2-4 months depending on how quickly decisions are made to assemble forces and go to war, communicate those instructions, and of course carry them out. This is plenty of time to move all of the Union ships to support their home bases, assemble reserves to repel any amphibious landing forces or contain them, and of course to build earthworks and assemble and man artillery and sink blockships and place obstructions.

This is a high risk move you are proposing for the RN, and as stated before, in OTL ACW of the 4 attempts, it worked twice and failed twice. I spelled out the conditions that made Mobile Bay and New Orleans vulnerable (their forts could only be supplied by water and once isolated by the attack force had to surrender), while Fort Fisher and Charleston held out for months (Fort Fisher) and years (Charleston). Both fell because the South collapsed more than any other reason.

Admiral Milne and others, not being idiots, are well aware of these factors and I cannot see them urging such a high risk operation and only carrying it out if directly ordered to. As far as the British are concerned, just ending the blockade inflicts a major blow to the United States and doesn't even require risking a ship or a sailor.

So again, what are the advantages to the British in this kind of high stakes move that justify the risk involved and also so massively makes this war less a limited war to force the Americans to recognize British neutral rights and more a war to the hilt?

You have not explained your reasoning why they would try this... lists of ships and guns are not an argument.

Not trying to pre-empt anyone ... but both sides have a point.
The vulnerability of fortifications is very variable, some would fall and some would not.

Fort Wagner was only abandoned after its water supply became contaminated, from all the bodies of its attackers. However, there are some fortifications in the North that could be compromised as were New Orleans and Mobile Bay.

(This also applies to any US attempts to take the war to Britain. Some fortifications are outdated* however, Palmerstons Follies, for example are, in modern parlance, at least a generation ahead of anything in the ACW, the designs had Wrought Iron Armour built in.)

* Martello towers are hardly Modern, just numerous and obvious, but still surprisingly resiliant.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
It's unlikely in the extreme that there'd be anything approaching a land raid on Britain, let alone a land invasion. There's no real capacity for it in any sense.



Now, if we look at the Crimea we can see examples (Kinburn and indeed the entire Sea of Azov) of a fort being defeated by bombardment.
I think it's unquestionable that a long enough bombardment against any fort can dismount or render unusable any guns mounted en barbette, and that heavy enough guns can chip away at and damage/destroy the fortifications themselves. (The high velocity 68-lber guns on the Terror and other ironclads, fired from close in, can almost certainly smash a masonry fort quite quickly.)

Most of the forts protecting NY have large fractions of their armament mounted en barbette, so a day or so of bombardment would reduce them to just the casement guns - a relatively small fraction of the total possible.


As for mining or sinking obstructions, they're both possible but the RN has been planning to deal with them for years or decades. (Years for the mines, decades for the sunken obstructions.) And a mined-up and blocked port is useless for trade anyway.
Here's what happened when the British first ran into mines.
The mines were close to the surface and could usually be seen and recovered with grapnel lines. In seventy-two hours of this, the world’s first minesweeping operation, thirty-three infernal machines were recovered.
These were the more effective contact mines; they also had electrically-detonated mines, which were less effective. If the US wants to use electrically detonated mines on the British they'd have to build fortified defences for the operators - which takes time, certainly longer than a few weeks.
Adding to this is that OTL the US didn't even bother trying to start laying large belts of mines during the tense period between Trent and the climbdown - they didn't even plan for what to do.
Think about that for a bit. The Trent took place on November 8. The news hit the US on the 16 November, and from then to the 30 December the main things the US did to prepare for a war were... very little.
The news got to the UK on the 27 November, and from there to the 30 December the British send an ultimatum, move troops, send out weapons, rush modern ships to the theater, issue conditional war orders and write up a detailed defensive plan based on the worst case scenario:
27th November 1861: News of the seizure reaches the UK
29th-30th November 1861: Special War Cabinet sits, UK ultimatum sent to the Federal States
4th December 1861: Mobilisation is ordered.
7th December 1861: The Melbourne, carrying large quantities of munitions and the first British reinforcements departs. The Orpheus, 21 escorted her from Plymouth.
9th December 1861: 25,000 men are ordered to Canada
10th December: Correspondents at Malta report the Mediterranian squadron has been ordered to dispatch all disposable ships to North America
16th December: RAdm Dacres appointed second in command to VAdm Milne, his flag is the Edgar, 89
19th December 1861: The first two battalions of Lord Frederick Paulet’s 1st Guards Brigade embarks for Canada (having had 6 days notice), the 3rd battalion (2nd Coldstreamers) is not embarked before the crisis abates.
20th December 1861: Williams issues General Militia Order No. 1, embodying a company of 84 offrs and men from each battalion of the Service Militia (roughly 38,000 men, exc/ offrs and Bn staffs), to be ready to march 14 days after recipt of the order.
21st December 1861: The gunboat reserve is activated
(and then the climb down happens)


So the US had 50 days or more and did very little. The British had 35 days, and moved 20,000 or so troops (counting cavalry and artillery) plus 40,000 modern rifles for the Canadian militia, over 2.5 million rounds of ammunition and at least 66 guns more modern and accurate than anything the US has.


My point here is that I don't think the US would have been able to use their remaining time as well as the British were. The Union had already wasted seven weeks, I doubt they could go from that to setting up an idealized defence plan of NY in the remaining eight. (While the British consider attacking ports to be sensible doctrine.)



I won't even bother addressing the question of a defensive fleet because the US doesn't have a fleet worth a damn. They have Monitor, four screw frigates, some sloops, and some increasingly less effective paddle/sail sloops and converted merchant ships. Nothing - nothing - except Monitor and the screw frigates can even hope to stand up to a 51 let alone a 90 or 120 - and those screw frigates and screw sloops are essentially their only hope for commerce raiding.


I'd also like to address the idea of rapidly moving in reinforcements to areas which are at risk of amphibious descent. I think the example of Washington DC in 1861 demonstrates that this is not possible on a short timescale.

Crimea was the first British experience landing on enemy soil in about 50 years. Despite this, they fought at the Alma a week after landing at Calamita Bay, 35 miles away from Sebastopol. Given how long it took to get troops to Washington in 1861- Lincoln calls for reinforcements on 15 April and by 26 April there are only four regiments there - it seems likely that the expected ability of the US to reinforce the coastline depends on actually having that coastline already garrisoned.

If we assume that it would take a week for the Union to rush forces to a threatened location - which is extremely generous given the 1861 example - then the question becomes either:

1) Can the Union spare enough troops to garrison the coastline thickly enough to prevent a British landing? (I'd expect at least 35,000 troops and 120 guns to be necessary to prevent a full-court British & French attack - they beat that many at the Alma - and there's several locations to defend)
2) Can the British reduce the forts and take New York inside a week?

(1) is certainly possible, though it would basically take 100,000 troops just to defend Bostom + The Delaware + New York, and that's a low estimate - and it comes out of an army already having force allocation problems, reducing their ability to both continue fighting the CSA and invade Canada.
Note that this is in addition to the troops operating the guns - 600 spare fortress guns means about 6,000 extra gunners, plus various ancillaries, and most of the east coast forts with guns in aren't manned as of the PoD - but I'm assuming they are.

But if they don't do that, then (2) there's the other problem. Which is that I think the New York forts would be lucky to hold out more than two or three days against a combined bombardment and landing. This is giving them a lot of credit - Kinburn was about as heavily armed as the entire New York Narrows system and it held out roughly three hours, I'm assuming about nine times as long.
The fort was of masonry with an earth parapet and mounted sixty guns in casemates and about twenty more in barbettes. There were also two powerful open batteries.

Brown , David K (2015-09-09). Before the Ironclad: Warship Design and Development 1815-1860 (Kindle Locations 4993-4994). Seaforth Publishing. Kindle Edition.
This isn't the only time - Sveaborg had magazine explosions after three and four hours of bombardment by mortar vessels, and they destroyed the storehouses by the end of the 12th.
The British had 106 mortar vessels built during the Crimean War.


So it'll probably have to be garrisons.

Speaking of force allocation, since it's come up just now - here's the problem the US has.

In OTL they had a certain allotment of forces. They have roughly speaking four troop sources:

1) Existing infantry units that are in field armies.
2) Existing infantry units in forts.
3) Existing infantry units still in training.
4) Newly raised infantry post-PoD.

And artillery-wise they have a similar situation.
i) Artillery in field armies.
ii) Artillery in land forts.
iii) Artillery in coast forts.
iv) Reserve artillery.
v) Artillery in ships.


The requirements here are:
A) Keep fighting the Confederacy.
B) Garrison the coast.
C) Provide a field army to invade Canada.


C) requires around 200,000 troops - which is what the British mobilization was expected to be able to counter. (A) requires most though not all of the troops currently involved, and (B) needs either a few troops or lots of them depending on how hard you want to do it. (If you're comfortable letting the RN have most of the coast, you can get away with defending Delaware River plus Boston plus NY plus Washington - meaning 100,000 troops.)

Here I won't even get into if there's the rifles required, but I think the evidence is incontrovertible from OTL that a lot of these troops - much like OTL - are going to be armed with muskets.

Troop wise, (1) and (2) are effectively committed - you can free up a few divisions by cancelling things, a few more by going to a defensive posture, but it's going to cripple the offensives planned for 1862. This could free up - round number - 50,000 troops (which is IMO generous.)

That means you need 250,000 troops from (3) and (4). Troops in (3) are going to be new and unskilled but at least reasonably trained, troops in (4) are going to be roughly as green as Canadian Militia are at that same point in time.
I think the likely situation is that at most half the troops can be from (3) - so the average force doing jobs (B) and (C) is going to be ~20% experienced, 40% inexperienced and 40% recruit.

As to artillery, there's a similar situation - you can't get much from (i) and (ii), they're already fighting the CSA. (iii) is actually an artillery sink, many forts are undergunned, so you'll be drawing heavily on the 600 guns in (iv) to supply artillery for the coastal forts. (they're too heavy for service in field armies.) Those 600 guns will, based on the known sample, get you 200 flank howitzers, 300 32-lbers and 100 24-lbers - after that you're out of luck - and roughly a quarter of that will arm two or three forts total.
(v) is actually quite tempting at this point...



In any case. If the Union does manage to fortify its coast to the point the British can't strike at NY or up the Delaware, it's going to have to commit almost everything it's got to spare and reduce forces in the south. 200,000 extra troops to invade Canada are going to be almost entirely musket armed raw recruits, and they're going to be facing a force which is about 2:1 composed of "militia with as long training as them if not a few weeks longer and armed with Enfields" and "heavily experienced crack shot British Regulars".

The Union may be able to manage the job of keeping their coastline secure, invading Canada successfully and still avoiding losing to the CSA. But it's going to be a considerable uphill struggle, and they may need to pick which two they'd prefer - and even then, a full-court British attack on New York is going to be very hard to counter.


And none of this prevents a British blockade. The Union simply does not have the tools required to prevent a close blockade - consisting of either a battlefleet, large numbers of torpedo boats, or large numbers of submarines.

So the best case for the US is a large army, not much better trained than the army that fought Bull Run, invading Canada; a series of inconclusive bombardments on their fortifications; a blockade; and the Confederacy pretty much sitting pretty.

The worst case is that the powder mills are lost; no troops in reserve if an army in contact with the CS suffers a reversal; all the US dockyards on the East Coast destroyed with their building ironclads; no surviving navy; no purchases of weapons from Europe... and most of their merchant fleet either reflagged or seized.

Given that, it's easy to understand why the US backed down.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Especially considering that:

the general approach to hurriedly enlarge or expand a fort is to use bastions and in this era, they used a lot of earth or sand, which actually is more shell and shot proof then the hardened bricks in the old forts. Fort Fisher is an outstanding example of this. You are also assuming that no blockships or obstructions are placed in the approaches, that no batteries are constructed to cover them, that no US warships are pulled from blockade duty (which is clearly hopeless at this point) and pulled back to the ports to help defend them in the interim, and that no one thinks of placing naval mines (then called torpedoes) into use early which is not crazy considering that the Russians used them heavily in the Crimean War and this was known to all sides in this conflict.

In order to determine how fast everyone moves, we would need to know the specific date that hostilities are viewed as highly likely (as this controls when forces start to assemble), how quickly forces can be assembled, and in the case of British warships, some of these are not immediately available as they are on foreign station, OR will need time to prepare for war in terms of assembling crews etc. In addition, there is the time frames needed to assemble these forces at their forward base, stock the forward bases with the need supplies for extended operations, and finally of course steaming time to attack.

This is not days, nor even a couple of weeks. This is at least 2-4 months depending on how quickly decisions are made to assemble forces and go to war, communicate those instructions, and of course carry them out. This is plenty of time to move all of the Union ships to support their home bases, assemble reserves to repel any amphibious landing forces or contain them, and of course to build earthworks and assemble and man artillery and sink blockships and place obstructions.

This is a high risk move you are proposing for the RN, and as stated before, in OTL ACW of the 4 attempts, it worked twice and failed twice. I spelled out the conditions that made Mobile Bay and New Orleans vulnerable (their forts could only be supplied by water and once isolated by the attack force had to surrender), while Fort Fisher and Charleston held out for months (Fort Fisher) and years (Charleston). Both fell because the South collapsed more than any other reason.

Admiral Milne and others, not being idiots, are well aware of these factors and I cannot see them urging such a high risk operation and only carrying it out if directly ordered to. As far as the British are concerned, just ending the blockade inflicts a major blow to the United States and doesn't even require risking a ship or a sailor.

So again, what are the advantages to the British in this kind of high stakes move that justify the risk involved and also so massively makes this war less a limited war to force the Americans to recognize British neutral rights and more a war to the hilt?

You have not explained your reasoning why they would try this... lists of ships and guns are not an argument.

Especially considering that:

a) the reason the Lincoln Administration didn't redirect the US strategy in the winter of 1862 was because they were not posturing for domestic audiences, unlike Palmerston, and they knew full well that either international arbitration or returning Mason and Slidell to British custody was the path forward; it was less a matter of "backing down" and more the reality the four rebel officers weren't worth the effort. The British were, after all, more than welcome to them.;)

b) the reality that the crisis, if there was going to be one, would be because of a decision by Britain's leadership, and would not come before the winter-spring of 1862 - which, just to be clear - was nine months to a year after the US began mobilization; so trying to compare the US effort to defend Washington in April, 1861, at a time when there are all of 16,000 troops on active duty across the entire continent, to the wealth of resources the US had at the New Year (~527,000 troops on active duty, not including the navy, marines, and revenue marine), as well as state defense organizations that had been shaking down in organizational and recruiting terms for nine months or more, is the sort of rose-colored glasses one would expect from the IJN in 1942, not the RN in 1862. Whatever else the RN was as an institution, it was generally conservative and certainly not reckless; based on the RN's operations in the Baltic, Black Sea, Pacific, and Arctic in 1855, prudence and caution seem to be the watchwords, certainly among the flag officers.

c) Especially since, after all, the USN's modern screw steamers in commission by this time include five steam frigates (with Franklin on the ways and essentially complete), six first class steam sloops (equivalent to RN corvettes), and scores of built for the purpose second class sloops and gunboats (equivalent to RN "gunvessels") and more on the ways, up to and including ironclad steam frigates (Re d' Italia and Re d' Portigallo), as well as broadside screw steamers that could be easily converted to broadside ironclads not unlike Terror et al, much less the monitors.

d) and, of course, innumerable ocean-going sidewheel steamers (built as warships and converted from ocean-going liners) ready for use as commerce raiders, and sailing warships, that would be a very real threat to both the British steam merchant fleet and the 90 percent of the British merchant marine that was still under sail in the 1860s.

Given the results of Bomarsund (which is, after all, in the Aland Islands, offshore from Sweden, not close to anything approximating Russian territory, and yet still required a French infantry division of 10,000 men to reduce), and the British failures at Petropvalovsk, Sweaborg, Kronstadt, and Taganrog in 1854-55, and the British failure at Taku Forts in 1859 (where the Chinese sank HMS Comorant, Lee, and Plover, the largest number of RN warships lost in a single action between Lake Champlain in 1814 and Coronel in 1914, and badly damaged three more), much less the realities that the "success" at Taku in 1860 required an expeditionary force of 18,000 men (11,000 British, 7,000 French) who landed 10 miles away and marched overland to besiege the Chinese fortifications, and that Sevastopol required the entirely of the deployable British army and the vast majority of the French, Turkish, and Sardinian armies to cross 40 miles of the Crimean countryside and spend 12 months beisieging the city before the Russians withdrew - not surrendering, of course.

The only army on either side that surrendered during the Russo-Turkish war of 1853-56 was one commanded by a British general, of course; the same one who ended up in command in BNA in 1861-62, interestingly enough.

Given that, one can understand why the British didn't press the situation...

Best,
 
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Not trying to pre-empt anyone ... but both sides have a point.
The vulnerability of fortifications is very variable, some would fall and some would not.

Fort Wagner was only abandoned after its water supply became contaminated, from all the bodies of its attackers. However, there are some fortifications in the North that could be compromised as were New Orleans and Mobile Bay.

(This also applies to any US attempts to take the war to Britain. Some fortifications are outdated* however, Palmerstons Follies, for example are, in modern parlance, at least a generation ahead of anything in the ACW, the designs had Wrought Iron Armour built in.)

* Martello towers are hardly Modern, just numerous and obvious, but still surprisingly resiliant.

I would not anticipate a full scale American assault on the British Isles, although small scale raids and hitting commerce in local waters, similar to incidents in the War of 1812 and American Revolution would seem highly likely. Not so much because they would inflict serious harm but because they would cause embarrassment.

But as I said, running the forts, as happened in New Orleans and Mobile Bay depended very much on local and unique conditions. Running the forts in the three major harbors Saph is discussing (Boston, New York and Philalephia) just puts the fleet into a cul de sac much like Charleston harbor and a certain crossfire from interlocking fields of fire from forts as well as the highly likely hurriedly emplaced shore batteries and bastions built to support said forts that would appear once war is reasonably certain. Not to mention of course the US Navy ships that would be present.

Once in those harbors the RN fleet either wins, or has to retreat under heavy fire back out the way it came. That would definitely be considered a high risk operation by any prudent naval commander.
 
do the Brits really need to go storming into the harbors? For the purposes of a blockade, can't they sit out in the deep water and interdict shipping? Do they really need to go within range of shore guns?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
do the Brits really need to go storming into the harbors? For the purposes of a blockade, can't they sit out in the deep water and interdict shipping? Do they really need to go within range of shore guns?
They can do that for a blockade (they have so many steam battleships they could put one on every major port channel), but they did have a doctrine of attacking harbours (it's preferable to sink ships there) so I think they'd have at least tried it - and my point is basically that the US can't build any of the panacea ironclad fleet if the British do this.

Remember, the most recent war the British fought navally was the Crimea, which was a war almost entirely about defeating shore defences and attacking harbours from the naval side of things. And they have so much firepower available in the NA&WI station (plus about six other ironclads built specifically to attack ports, totalling seven - Terror Thunderbolt Glatton Meteor Aetna Trusty Erebus) that attacking a port is frankly easy.

This is the period in which coastal guns are at perhaps their lowest effectiveness. Big rifled or breech loading guns are not yet around - the US defences are mostly 8" smoothbore shell guns and a predominance of 32-lbers, with some 24-lbers - and steam power has made seaborne guns much more effective since it's so much easier for the bombarders to pick their arcs. (Though the RN did also do some effective bombardment in the 1880s, when their ships were armoured such they could resist the shells fired at them.)

So yes, the best case for the Union is a blockade. The worst case is that the RN barges into all their major ports, knocks out the forts, shells the naval yards and destroys any attempt to build a navy.
 
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do the Brits really need to go storming into the harbors? For the purposes of a blockade, can't they sit out in the deep water and interdict shipping? Do they really need to go within range of shore guns?

that would certainly seem the more cost effective and reasonable option than risking heavy casualties and perhaps serious losses in warships trying to 'storm the castle'

Doctrine from the Napoleonic Era, and from the Crimean Era would seem to indicate that the blockade was the preferred method, with direct assaults made only when strategically vital and even then, there was no storming of Sevastapol or St Petersburg harbors by the Royal Navy

Attempting such a thing on New York, Philadelphia or Boston would seem much the same as the above
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There's the obvious historical examples, of course:

that would certainly seem the more cost effective and reasonable option than risking heavy casualties and perhaps serious losses in warships trying to 'storm the castle' . Doctrine from the Napoleonic Era, and from the Crimean Era would seem to indicate that the blockade was the preferred method, with direct assaults made only when strategically vital and even then, there was no storming of Sevastapol or St Petersburg harbors by the Royal Navy. Attempting such a thing on New York, Philadelphia or Boston would seem much the same as the above


There's the obvious historical examples, of course:
  • Sevastopol, which required a 12-months-long campaign by the French, Turks, British, and Sardinian armies (with four times as many French, and twice as many Turkish troops as British, of course), and the Allied fleet in the Black Sea;
  • Bomarsund, in the Aland Islands, offshore from Sweden, not close to anything approximating Russian territory, and yet still required a French infantry division of 10,000 men to reduce it, plus the full attention of the Allied Baltic fleet;
  • the British failures at:
  • Petropavlovsk,
  • Sweaborg,
  • Kronstadt, and
  • Taganrog in 1854-55, and the
  • British failure at Taku Forts in 1859 (where the Chinese sank HMS Comorant, Lee, and Plover, the largest number of RN warships lost in a single action between Lake Champlain in 1814 and Coronel in 1914, and badly damaged three others);
  • much less the realities that the "success" at Taku in 1860 required an expeditionary force of 18,000 men (11,000 British, 7,000 French) who landed 10 miles away and marched overland to besiege the fortifications;
Even if one pretends Alexandria in 1882 is applicable, the reality is the bombardment was of mixed success, to be charitable, and occupying the city still required a significant British expeditionary force - and the British advance that led to Tel el Kebir was not, in fact, mounted overland from Alexandria; it actually went south on the (undefended) Suez Canal by steamer and then marched overland from there...

The closest example to a "naval storm the castle" as posited was 2nd Taku Forts, against the Chinese, and that was an abject defeat for the RN.

There are those who will point to Kinburn, but the reality there was:

a) the fortified Russian position could be attacked from three sides (almost four, really - see the map), and
b) the British and French still had to land an expeditionary force, 8,000 men strong, to cut the fortified position off from any overland support or supply;
c) the Russians had no naval forces in a position to prevent the Allied fleets (61 vessels in total, at least, plus transports)from taking position.

Here's a map - doesn't exactly mirror the southern or eastern approaches to New York, the Delaware Bay, the Chesapeake Bay, Narragansett Bay, Boston Harbor/Massachusetts Bay/Cape Cod Bay, Portsmouth/Kittery Bay, San Francisco Bay, or anywhere else likely to be defended in an Anglo-American conflict. One could suggest it looks like Sandy Hook, New Jersey, but one could suggest it also looks like Lissa/Vis.

800px-Attack_on_Kinburn.jpg


Best,
 
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I would not anticipate a full scale American assault on the British Isles, although small scale raids and hitting commerce in local waters, similar to incidents in the War of 1812 and American Revolution would seem highly likely. Not so much because they would inflict serious harm but because they would cause embarrassment.

But as I said, running the forts, as happened in New Orleans and Mobile Bay depended very much on local and unique conditions. Running the forts in the three major harbors Saph is discussing (Boston, New York and Philalephia) just puts the fleet into a cul de sac much like Charleston harbor and a certain crossfire from interlocking fields of fire from forts as well as the highly likely hurriedly emplaced shore batteries and bastions built to support said forts that would appear once war is reasonably certain. Not to mention of course the US Navy ships that would be present.

Once in those harbors the RN fleet either wins, or has to retreat under heavy fire back out the way it came. That would definitely be considered a high risk operation by any prudent naval commander.

Hmmm ... how about more modest proposals such as retaking Cape Hatteras (Or depending on the timeline New Orleans)
The Union Navy has already proved it can be done, and without any Ironclads.
 
So yes, the best case for the Union is a blockade. The worst case is that the RN barges into all their major ports, knocks out the forts, shells the naval yards and destroys any attempt to build a navy.

The best case for the Union is that the Royal Navy barges into all their major ports, is ripped apart by crossfire from the forts, shore batteries, local ships, etc. and is unable to effectively blockade anything.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The best case for the Union is that the Royal Navy barges into all their major ports, is ripped apart by crossfire from the forts, shore batteries, local ships, etc. and is unable to effectively blockade anything.

I seriously doubt that's possible if the RN employs even a modicum of force concentration. Obviously if the RN disburses things so that every ship anchors in the ideal fire path of a different fort then the RN is going to lose. But if the major ports are "Delaware River, New York and Boston", then for Boston there's basically no forts or shore batteries with any guns in them, for New York the defences are vulnerable as analyzed upthread and for the Delaware River Fort Delaware is reasonably strong but doesn't have any weapons able to harm an ironclad like the Terror - and indeed only has a few dozen guns total, so a RN fleet could conceivably run the guns, albeit with casualties. (Not as many as you'd think, though, the Crimean War showed that shells do not lead to a quick destruction of a ship except with a poorly trained crew.)

As for crossfire with local ships, what ships? The RN's local fleet effectively outfights the entire USN.


So as an example, let's look at New York. We'll assume that the RN's attack force simply sails directly into the main gun arcs of the Narrows forts (i.e. the focus-fire point) and then anchors there. How many guns are pointed at them, assuming every work either already built or started is fully gunned up with the greatest number of guns at any point in 1862.


Fort Hamilton
Roughly 3 24 lbers from the redoubt, 15 32 lbers from the casemate, 18 32-lbers and 25 24-lbers from the barbette. (Nearly every gun in the fort.)

Fort Tompkins:
OTL unfinished. By 1867 it had 1 7" rifle, 1 15" Rodman, 8 32-lbers, 2 8" guns, 14 10" guns, seven 200-lber and 6 300-lber.
Converting all those into the equivalents seen elsewhere on the coast, a completed Fort Tompkins in 1862 would mount 8 32-lbers, 10 8" shell guns and 21 10" shell guns.

Fort Richmond
20 guns facing the narrows, all 8" shell guns in late 1862.


Battery Hudson and Battery Morton
Both face south, not into the narrows.

Fort Lafayette
20 32-lbers fire into the narrows.


Total=

28 24-lbers
61 32-lbers
28 8" shell guns
21 10" shell guns
(of which a total of 39 guns, most of them among the heaviest including all the 10" guns, are on the battery which was OTL unfinished.)

This is a lot of firepower, it's true. But it's the best situation for the Americans, indeed it's unrealistic... if the British instead run the forts through the narrows, they have the chance of taking considerable damage (which is why they probably wouldn't do it) except for HMS Warrior and HMS Defence, which are both fast and well protected and which could basically resist all these guns for no meaningful damage.



Now, if we also assume that all the heavy units of the US Navy are here, leaving nothing elsewhere, the USN can also bring to bear the following broadsides from their heavy ships.

The:
Mississippi 1 10" 4 8" paddle
Susquehanna 1 150-lber 6 9" paddle
Powhatan 1 11" 5 9" paddle
Wabash 1 10" 7 8" 12 9"
Roanoke 1 10" 7 8" 14 9"
Colorado 1 10" 7 8" 14 9"
Minnesota 1 10" 7 8" 14 9"
Niagara 6 11"
Monitor 2 11" Armour


(This is impossible to actually achieve, at least one of these ships was on the West Coast and two are blockading Hampton Roads, but whatever.)

The USN's other heavies are basically sailing frigates. Sail versus screw is extremely one sided.

But if the RN fleet all did this, sailing into the perfect spot, that's how much firepower would be aimed at them.

And they'd have in reply?

30 68-lber with another 25 on the way
2 110-lber with 11 on the way
197 8" with 56 on the way
55 10"
And a staggering 409 32-lbers with 97 more on the way.

There's about 600 guns per broadside in the RN fleet, while the maximum number of guns aimed at them at one time by anything above a sloop is 170 guns - 1/3 to 1/4 the amount. Once the reinforcements turn up the RN squadron has around 800 guns per broadside, five times as many as the USN can point at them. (And most of the RN firepower is in the heavy frigates and ships of the line, so even a like-vs-like is favourable to the RN by a factor of two or three.)


In this situation, where the RN literally does exactly what the US would prefer, the issue is still rather one sided.
And if the RN loses?
They send over their other half dozen Crimean-period ironclads and another large fleet, and this time they do it the proper way (i.e. land 11 tons of explosive shells per broadside on the forts first.)
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Yet oddly enough, the same fleets of steam liners et al

... Obviously if the RN disburses things so that every ship anchors in the ideal fire path of a different fort then the RN is going to lose. ... Mississippi 1 10" 4 8" paddle
Susquehanna 1 150-lber 6 9" paddle
Powhatan 1 11" 5 9" paddle
Wabash 1 10" 7 8" 12 9"
Roanoke 1 10" 7 8" 14 9"
Colorado 1 10" 7 8" 14 9"
Minnesota 1 10" 7 8" 14 9"
Niagara 6 11"
Monitor 2 11" Armour
(This is impossible to actually achieve, at least one of these ships was on the West Coast and two are blockading Hampton Roads, but whatever.) - snip -

Yet oddly enough, the same fleets of RN steam liners et al never tried anything similar against the Russians, did they?

The British (and French) tried it with frigates et al (including at least one steamer, and with a total of 218 guns) against Petropavlovsk (where the Russians had one sailing frigate and 67 guns) in 1854 and were so abjectly defeated the RN admiral shot himself over the disgrace.

The British tried it with steam gunboats et al on the Peiho and were so abjectly defeated by the Chinese they lost more warships in 1859 (HMS Comorant, Lee, and Plover sunk; three others badly damaged) than they did in 1914 against the Germans at Coronel.

The British, of course, trying to enter any US port are, presumably, steaming forward, either in line ahead or at best, parallel lines; the US defenders are, of course, crossing their T as the British come ahead... and the British line(s) are under fire from their flanks from the shore defenses, of course, as well; and also, of course, dealing with mines, blockships, chains, booms, firerafts, etc. ... and again, pretending the historical state of US harbor defenses in April, 1861, or even April, 1862, can be weighed in a strategic situation where there is a threat from the RN is about as relevant as considering the situation of Britain's air defenses in 1901.

Finally, you may wish to check the DANFS entries to get a better idea of where the USN's ships, from steam frigates on down to gunboats, were deployed in 1862; none of the steam frigates, or the sidewheel sloops named here, were in the Pacific.

The RN had eight coastal broadside ironclads built in the late 1850s, plus the two Warriors, and the two Defences, none of which (historically) were ready for action in the winter of 1862, other than Terror, the guardship at Bermuda. She was the guardship at Bermuda, of course, because the shore defenses were so poor...

As stated:

"... (Milne's)force, he explained, was entirely taken up with protecting commerce and defending imperial possessions, not even the most important of them being properly fortified: the local defences of Antigua Yard were ' utterly nil'; at Jamaica the guns were unserviceable and the works 'badly contrived and worse executed'; Barbadoes was ' not much better than Jamaica'; Bermuda, though extensively fortified, was not wholly protected; St. John, New Brunswick, had 'no local defences whatever'; and the Canadian Lakes, Halifax and the New Brunswick coal mines all had to be provided for. ...

(In addition) while the American turret ships were not ocean-going vessels and the British ironclads were stronger ships, the British would still have met with some difficulties. Their ironclads had too deep a draught to use Bermuda or to operate in the shallow waters of the North American coast. The monitors might therefore have played havoc with any attempt by the older wooden frigates to maintain a close blockade."

(Finally, RN First Lord of the Admiralty) Somerset eventually declared himself utterly opposed to attacking heavily defended places, probably because (British war planncer RN Capt.) Washington had told him that the only hope of success lay in the rather unlikely event of surprising them. ' From the intricacy of the channels and the strength of the forts,' Washington believed, 'it is probable that Boston could not be attacked with any hope of success.' Nor was he much more optimistic about bombarding New York: ' This might have the effect of putting an end to the war, and if so it might be worth the risk. But the risk would be too great if the intention transpired and time were allowed the enemy to make preparations.' The defences of New York had not yet been made impregnable but could readily be improved; a sudden dash, therefore, would be the ' only hope of success '

Source is, of course:

British Preparations for War with the North, 1861-1862, by Kenneth Bourne; The English Historical Review, Vol. 76, No. 301 (Oct., 1961), pp. 600-63.

The British, from the naval minister through to the British admiral on station in the Western Hemisphere, and his deputy commanders, had no intention of these sort of maritime charges of the light brigades you continue to posit, for the obvious reason the British had tried similar tactics against the Russians and Chinese in the previous decade and suffered disasters - including, as stated previously, the largest single loss of British warships between Lake Champlain in 1814 and Coronel in 1914.

Now, presumably, they had a better understanding of the RN's capabilities in the winter of 1862 than anyone else.;)

Best,


 
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Hmmm ... how about more modest proposals such as retaking Cape Hatteras (Or depending on the timeline New Orleans)
The Union Navy has already proved it can be done, and without any Ironclads.

a prudent American Navy would evacuate and abandon those places if war is a likelihood, but yeah, the places taken from the South in the early war would be very vulnerable to Royal Navy offensive action. Fortress Monroe would likely be under heavy pressure very quickly as would Key West and other places vulnerable to isolation as they can only be supplied by sea.

Which would indeed hurt the Union cause, although whether that means much for the South long term is another question and they would be fairly easily taken back if the United States and British Empire made a peace that didn't involve the Confederacy

The difference of course is that the bases in Southern territory or next to it can only be supplied by sea, while the ports have defenses that can be supplied by land and also are roomy enough for large reserves of troops to be kept handy as well as being on major rail lines.
 
a prudent American Navy would evacuate and abandon those places if war is a likelihood, but yeah, the places taken from the South in the early war would be very vulnerable to Royal Navy offensive action. Fortress Monroe would likely be under heavy pressure very quickly as would Key West and other places vulnerable to isolation as they can only be supplied by sea.

Which would indeed hurt the Union cause, although whether that means much for the South long term is another question and they would be fairly easily taken back if the United States and British Empire made a peace that didn't involve the Confederacy

The difference of course is that the bases in Southern territory or next to it can only be supplied by sea, while the ports have defenses that can be supplied by land and also are roomy enough for large reserves of troops to be kept handy as well as being on major rail lines.

Fort Monroe has been mentioned, as has a best and worst case scenario we should explore this further.

The absolute worst case scenario would be the RN attacking Fort Monroe during the Peninsula Campaign. After Robert E Lee has begun the Seven Days battle, and Little Mac has already made the decision to call of the campaign and evacute the AOP.

It is not outside the realms of possibility that McClellan might think himself "Trapped" and surrender in order to "Save" the army.
Whilst blaming everyone except himself, especially Lincoln, for the situation.

There is no practical way for an amphibious evacuation to suceed in the face of a Royal Navy blockade, or depending on the timeline, which we really do need some agreement on, the Peninsula campaign to even begin.
(Huge butterflies)

Any ideas anyone?
 
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