AHC: Britain Hands Over Ulster, Ulster Fights

Question

Which of the two groups would have done better in a straight out fight, the IRA or the UVF? Both 1920's versions.

I was under the immpression that the two groups would be pretty equal. More men in the IRA due to the larger population to draw support from, but more firepower from the UVF due to a certain degree of British support.
As for the legitmate Irish army versus the UVF, well I suppose the Ulstermen can always copy the tactics of their Republican counterparts, though the Irish army did pretty well in the Civil War against said tactics.

But maybe the UVF can muster up some sort of Israeli style rage that allows them to pwn any and all enemies that oppose the existance of their state :D

Both Chamberlain and Churchill offered De Valera Northern Ireland in return for entering WW2 on the Allied side. Trouble is, in that scenario the British would help put down the loyalist rebellion.
I've heard of this multiple times, no one believed me when I mentioned it either :p
No one ever believes you when you float the idea that Churchill was not 100% commited to maintining the British Empire completely :rolleyes:
 
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Which of the two groups would have done better in a straight out fight, the IRA or the UVF? Both 1920's versions.

I was under the immpression that the two groups would be pretty equal. More men in the IRA due to the larger population to draw support from, but more firepower from the UVF due to a certain degree of British support.
As for the legitmate Irish army versus the UVF, well I suppose the Ulstermen can always copy the tactics of their Republican counterparts, though the Irish army did pretty well in the Civil War against said tactics.

But maybe the UVF can muster up some sort of Israeli style rage that allows them to pwn any and all enemies that oppose the existance of their state :D

there are differences, to a man the UVF are WWI vets, this is much less true of the IRA, the IRA during both the Anglo-Irish and Civil Wars were almost always short on arms and ammo, the UVF had lots of stock piles of arms plus no shortage of people in the UK willing to sell or give them guns, it wouldn't be shocking if left over artillery from the war found its way into the UVF's hands, also more or less every Unionist (460,000 men and women) signed (some in blood) the Ulster Covenant of 1912 which stated:

BEING CONVINCED in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship, and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of His Gracious Majesty King George V., humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn Covenant, throughout this our time of threatened calamity, to stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognize its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right, we hereto subscribe our names.

they'll fight to the death all of them, Southern Ireland had little of that unity of purpose
 
there are differences, to a man the UVF are WWI vets, this is much less true of the IRA, the IRA during both the Anglo-Irish and Civil Wars were almost always short on arms and ammo, the UVF had lots of stock piles of arms plus no shortage of people in the UK willing to sell or give them guns, it wouldn't be shocking if left over artillery from the war found its way into the UVF's hands, also more or less every Unionist (460,000 men and women) signed (some in blood) the Ulster Covenant of 1912 which stated:
BEING CONVINCED in our consciences that Home Rule would be disastrous to the material well-being of Ulster as well as of the whole of Ireland, subversive of our civil and religious freedom, destructive of our citizenship, and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we, whose names are underwritten, men of Ulster, loyal subjects of His Gracious Majesty King George V., humbly relying on the God whom our fathers in days of stress and trial confidently trusted, do hereby pledge ourselves in solemn Covenant, throughout this our time of threatened calamity, to stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognize its authority. In sure confidence that God will defend the right, we hereto subscribe our names.
they'll fight to the death all of them, Southern Ireland had little of that unity of purpose
Well, there are a few people who would probably be happy to die for the Republic....though I don't think it's anywhere close to that number. Then again how many people at the time will actually be able or willing to fight? It's one thing to say that you swear, it's another to actually get up, put on your bandolier and spend God only know's how long fighting a brutal guerilla campaign.
 

Thande

Donor
I've heard of this multiple times, no one believed me when I mentioned it either :p
No one ever believes you when you float the idea that Churchill was not 100% commited to maintining the British Empire completely :rolleyes:

Well, it's not as if Ulster was an integral part of the British Empire like India ;)
 
Well, there are a few people who would probably be happy to die for the Republic....though I don't think it's anywhere close to that number. Then again how many people at the time will actually be able or willing to fight? It's one thing to say that you swear, it's another to actually get up, put on your bandolier and spend God only know's how long fighting a brutal guerilla campaign.

well the UVF was 100,000 men strong (likely would of been all 230,000 men that signed but they were limited out fear what the Brits would think) they got themselves in 1914, 24,000 guns and 3,000,000 rounds from the Germans (thats one shipment) when the war broke out in Europe they joined the army and formed the 36th (Ulster) Division I can't prove that'd all fight but I think they would of, every year (even today) in July they have the Orange Marches to celebrate the Siege of Derry and the Battle of the Boyne, marshal glory and all that is a big part of the identity of the Unionists of Ulster.


compare the Ulster Volunteers to the Irish Volunteers, on paper at lest in 1914 they had 200,000 members, but while the UVF got itself 24,000 rifles the IVF only managed to get 1,000 rifles, most of the IVF weren't hard-core republicans ether, when WWI broke out 175,000 left to form the National Volunteers who quickly became the 10th and 16th Irish Divisions and fought for the Brits in the war. only about 13,500 men stayed in the Irish Volunteers, of whom only about 3,000-4,000 took part in the Easter Rising of 1916 (1,000 in Dublin, 2-3,000 every where else)
the IRA between 1919 and 1923 had about 100,000 members on paper, but only about 15,000 ever really served, with only 3,000 serving at any given time, the latter Irish Free State only fielded an army of 55,000 men during the Civil War, and they got all their guns from the Brits.
 
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Well, it's not as if Ulster was an integral part of the British Empire like India ;)
Trying telling that to just about everybody in Ulster in the 1930's
Atleast they wanted to be part of the empire, one of the few places that did.

well the UVF was 100,000 men strong (likely would of been all 230,000 men that signed but they were limited out fear what the Brits would think) they got themselves in 1914, 20,000 guns and 3,000,000 rounds from the Germans (thats one shipment) when the war broke out in Europe they joined the army and formed the 36th (Ulster) Division I can't prove that'd all fight but I think they would of, every year (even today) in July they have the Orange Marches to celebrate the Siege of Derry and the Battle of the Boyne, marshal glory and all that is a big part of the identity of the Unionists of Ulster.
Tell me about it, for about three months of the year a big banner of King Billy is stuck up on the main road to my school :mad:
Not even near the 12th, but it still goes up with red, white and blue flying everywhere.
Okay, I see your point. The UVF are more badass then I first took them for :p
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
Personal I think the question are where the UVFare stopped in the following war, and how many Catholics they drive out, I think the Irish Ulster are going to be part of North Ireland afterward, through it can turn real ugly if they conquer the Pale.
 
On the relocation of Ulster Protestants to Scotland...

Would his help or hurt the Conservative Party given its poor showing in Scotland generally since the Thatcher era?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Would his help or hurt the Conservative Party given its poor showing in Scotland generally since the Thatcher era?

It wouldn't happen, I'm sorry this is as reaslistic as suggesting the relocation of the entire Anglo population of the American south-west, there are no way they will accept it, and they will fight to stay. Why are it that people suggest the ethnic cleansing of North Ireland´are a good thing? The Protestants are native to the area, and have no wish to leave and will fight to keep their ancestorial land.
 
About Rhodesia, I could imagine Rhodesia being an ally for independent Ulster if it manages to fight off the Irish Republic, but even if the Republic manages to enforce its authority over Ulster, I doubt it would be capable of expelling the entire Protestant population and even if it could, Britain might not let them.

Of course, Rhodesia first came up as a place to put the Irish Protestants if Ireland was united much earlier and Britain was intent on enforcing it. However, if Britain abandons Ulster pre-1979, I think an alliance with Rhodesia might work. They're both British populations upset with London after all.

Might Israel be an ally for Ulster as well?

And although I remember reading that Ulster had shipbuilding industries and the like, could Ulstermen serve abroad as mercenaries as a means of providing revenue if Ulster-as-it-is is not able to sustain itself economically?

I'm imagining Ulster regiments serving in Rhodesia in exchange for masses of chrome to re-export, thus getting around the sanctions on Rhodesia itself.
 
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