AHC: Britain becomes analogue of Imperial Japan

[mightfly]

Any African nation lucky enough to modernize to the level of European nations by the end of the 19th century would be a close ally in at least one European power and would have had mostly friendly relations with them.

But malaria and climate makes an African great power in 1900 nearly impossible unless the POD is 600+ years earlier.

Why?

I don't see why malaria and climate would stop a possible a cultural revolution in a part of Africa by maybe blacks, arabs or berbers that could lead to a rapid industrialization movement.

Japan being an example.

From there a charismatic leader possibly pushes ideology of revenge or conquest against colonial powers which leads to conflict and the afforementioned burning of Madrid and attacks on portugal and the Dutch.
England and others losses its colonies to alliances made to this new African power which then lead to defeats of other colonial powers. Britian fearing reprisals for its colonial history decides it needs a shield against the alliance and decides "it won't fall like spain!"

 

[Elfwine]

Why?

I don't see why malaria and climate would stop a possible a cultural revolution in a part of Africa by maybe blacks, arabs or berbers that could lead to a rapid industrialization movement.

Japan being an example.

Japan was considerably more technologically advanced than anywhere in Africa. Which is related to malaria and climate.

 

[Badshah]

My excuse has always been this: their technology and their reach advanced faster than their culture. Japan of the 1830s was an iron age, feudal civilization. Japan of a hundred years later was a modern world power (or at least it was regarded as such). You can't advance that far that fast and expect a culture's moral standards to be able to keep up.

Nothing that the Japanese did would have been considered out-of-place by a medieval army on the warpath. Because on a fundamental level, that's what the Japanese culture still was: Medieval, just adapted to the 20th century.

It really isn't. In many ways, Japanese society before the Restoration was more liberal than Japanese society today. Things like homosexuality, nudity and stuff was more accepted, and once they did 'modernise', they began to adopt what they perceived as more 'European' outlooks on this sort of stuff. In many ways, Mightfly is correct, as Japan was in a way acting how it perceived what the European Empires were like. So, yeah, Europe wasn't directly responsible for such an act as the Nanking Massacre, but certainly there was some level of influence there.

Also while it's true that nothing like "comfort women" really happened in European Empires, war rape was certainly a thing that happened a lot and it is and has been, unfortunately, a custom of war.

Now nothing I've said is condoning Japan. I'm just saying that putting Japan and European Empires in separate categories is wrong. Imperialism is imperialism. It is a bad thing. And it happened everywhere.

 

[Badshah]

Japan was considerably more technologically advanced than anywhere in Africa. Which is related to malaria and climate.

Egypt.

filler

 

[Elfwine]

Egypt.

filler

Not sure Egypt was at the level Japan was, from what some posters have said on Japan, though.


And speaking of imperialism, I wouldn't say they were in different categories so much as Japan in China being much worse than standard.

 

[Badshah]

Not sure Egypt was at the level Japan was, from what some posters have said on Japan, though.


And speaking of imperialism, I wouldn't say they were in different categories so much as Japan in China being much worse than standard.

To explain it, I'd say they were in an unwinnable war, and thought that creating terror would benefit them.

So, yeah. Much worse....because their mentality gets changed to desperation.

 

[kasumigenx]

Have the Britons defeat the Romans then have the Dark Ages still happen as OTL.

 

[Elfwine]

Have the Britons defeat the Romans then have the Dark Ages still happen as OTL.

And how exactly is that going to work? For starters, how do you have "the Dark Ages still happen as OTL" with a POD four centuries earlier?

 

[mightfly]

To explain it, I'd say they were in an unwinnable war, and thought that creating terror would benefit them.

So, yeah. Much worse....because their mentality gets changed to desperation.

That is a reasonable concept especially since Japan's attempt at colonialization and imperialism lacked the advantages western nations got in many regions of the world which Jarod Diamond outlined in his book (Guns, Germs, and Steel). Technologically All the regions Japan tried to conquer had experience with modern weapons and technology even if it was a bit out dated.

Japan had a technologically advantage but china, and the philippines could have easily reorganized its forces to resist the japanese with the technology they had but mismanagement prevented a proper defence. Technology in Asia had also developed well to the point were asia population was quite massive even at the time of the second world war giving japan an massive expanse of people it needed

Next, Japan did not have the biological advantage western nations over many native peoples such as in the americas, australia and the pacific. The spread of diseases caused panic and devastated local peoples decreasing their populations and allowing far easier conquest.

Then there was the cultural differences such as in the case of the difference in the fates of Montezuma vs King Kamehameha. The Aztec triple alliance was shakey while Kamehameha united the hawaiians under one ruler, then quickly played with alliances with the europeans against one another. Having allies China was able to force a war of attrition on japan. Korea was not as lucky as it was lost in a earlier war where its only ally was China before it gained any of the modernization of japan's forces had. Or allies to support its campaign against japan. (plus koreans didn't like china anymore than japan at that time)

 

[Elfwine]

Problem. European nations with each other had to face all these kind of problems, and didn't resort to over the top terror for the most part (Nazis, yes, Soviets, probably, but that's not the European norm).

And things like the Bataan Death March were at the start of the war, not towards the end, so desperation . . . doesn't ring right here.

 

[mightfly]

Not sure Egypt was at the level Japan was, from what some posters have said on Japan, though.
.

Morrocco was a wealthy country at the time and could support the rising African power plus do we have to use an existing nation as the developing threat? Japan was able to quickly modernize in a short period of time thanks to the effort of large numbers of engineers and researchers going around the world to learn about the western technologies, societies and cultures. Blacks, berbers, or arabs might not be as accepted as learning tourist in europe or the americas but it is not impossible.

And who says it has to be a african nation maybe a south american or caribbean nation could become the power/threat maybe a stronger more vengeful haiti with a mindset similar to france wanting to punish germany for mistreatment post ww1.

If a larger state arose on the continent with maybe the control of west africa's gold and diamond coast region to finance its development nd a earlier trade period with china via the Panama canal it made be possible.

 

[Elfwine]

Morrocco was a wealthy country at the time and could support the rising African power plus do we have to use an existing nation as the developing threat? Japan was able to quickly modernize in a short period of time thanks to the effort of large numbers of engineers and researchers going around the world to learn about the western technologies, societies and cultures. Blacks, berbers, or arabs might not be as accepted as learning tourist in europe or the americas but it is not impossible.

Morocco was wealthy?

And again, the gap Japan has to close is much narrower. No amount of engineers and researchers going abroad is going to close this wide a gap that quickly.

And who says it has to be a african nation maybe a south american or caribbean nation could become the power/threat maybe a stronger more vengeful haiti with a mindset similar to france wanting to punish germany for mistreatment post ww1.

The person who mentioned an African nation doing this?

If a larger state arose on the continent with maybe the control of west africa's gold and diamond coast region to finance its development nd a earlier trade period with china via the Panama canal it made be possible.

What part of "technological gap" are you missing?

 

[Badshah]

Problem. European nations with each other had to face all these kind of problems, and didn't resort to over the top terror for the most part (Nazis, yes, Soviets, probably, but that's not the European norm).

And things like the Bataan Death March were at the start of the war, not towards the end, so desperation . . . doesn't ring right here.

I didn't say they did it with other European nations....though the Soviets and Nazis did. However, again war rape was a very common thing. It happened in Belgium during WWI, in WWII, in the 1800s, and so on and so forth. It's unfortunately still a thing armies do.

Colonizing powers often had smaller scale massacres, and had brutal policies that impoverished and did result in famines (especially concerning India).

 

[mightfly]

And again, the gap Japan has to close is much narrower. No amount of engineers and researchers going abroad is going to close this wide a gap that quickly.

People would have said the same about japan at the time. But it happens.

The person who mentioned an African nation doing this?

I am not narrow minded enough to limit my options.

What part of "technological gap" are you missing?

I just don't get this part are you implying people can't learn that quickly even when motivated? Is Africa lacking resources or something? It can't buy goods, equipment, or import teachers even offering high salaries?
Were there no empires in africa before european conquest? Mali, Ghana, gao not capable of being redeveloped, even with funds from selling diamonds and gold? Could they not have traded with rising american countries? Are lands to rugged to be reworked by land projects? can dams not be built with imported labour from china or india or just the local populace? Will malaria cause people to stop thinking and learning, is the weather so hot that people won't have time to work but will spend all day trying to cool themselves off?

I just don't see where you're coming from?

 

[Elfwine]

I didn't say they did it with other European nations....though the Soviets and Nazis did. However, again war rape was a very common thing. It happened in Belgium during WWI, in WWII, in the 1800s, and so on and so forth. It's unfortunately still a thing armies do.

Colonizing powers often had smaller scale massacres, and had brutal policies that impoverished and did result in famines (especially concerning India).

I was addressing mightfly, my appologies for being clearer.

And I have to note for the umpteenth time that there's a huge gap between soldiers running out of control and something systematic and organized. Most war rape is NOT the second (although some conflicts in Africa seem to be closer to the second).

 

[Badshah]

I was addressing mightfly, my appologies for being clearer.

And I have to note that there's a huge gap between soldiers running out of control and something systematic and organized. Most war rape is NOT the second (although some conflicts in Africa seem to be closer to the second).

Well, yeah....I think I mentioned that in the post before, but, in many cases, I'm sure it was sanctioned by the men leading the soldiers...

 

[mightfly]

I didn't say they did it with other European nations....though the Soviets and Nazis did. However, again war rape was a very common thing. It happened in Belgium during WWI, in WWII, in the 1800s, and so on and so forth. It's unfortunately still a thing armies do.

Colonizing powers often had smaller scale massacres, and had brutal policies that impoverished and did result in famines (especially concerning India).

Don't foget proper journalism had only just developed within these centuries when most nations were too busy with colonial enterprises. After the racist ideologies arose where treatment of non whites was different than treatment of whites. Who knows what happened in the crusades or the sacking of rome, or the dark ages, or the french and indian war or napoleonic campaigns?

 

[Badshah]

Don't foget proper journalism had only just developed within these centuries when most nations were too busy with colonial enterprises. After the racist ideologies arose where treatment of non whites was different than treatment of whites. Who knows what happened in the crusades or the sacking of rome, or the dark ages, or the french and indian war or napoleonic campaigns?

Going back there is pretty useless, as people are already aware....sackings are sackings. The Persian massacre of Delhi in 1739 killed 30 000 people, and that's just one. Keeping the argument within the 20th century puts the discussion within a proper scope, otherwise, literally nothing will get resolved.

 

[Elfwine]

Well, yeah....I think I mentioned that in the post before, but, in many cases, I'm sure it was sanctioned by the men leading the soldiers...

I'm not. Wellington hanging soldiers for it comes to mind.

Mightfly: IF you're including the sack of Rome and the Dark Ages and the Crusades, I'd love to see how Japanese soldiers behaved in the Age of the Country At War, or Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea, or . . .

Seriously, it's not as if Japan was an innocent country which had never done anything except exist peacefully any more than European countries were.

Plus, if "who knows what happened in X" is used, how is Japan supposed to be acting in response to stuff it wouldn't know about either?

 

[Badshah]

I'm not. Wellington hanging soldiers for it comes to mind.

And yet, it was still very prevalent, like in Namibia during the Herrero and Namaqua Genocide.

I think that while what Japan did in the Nanking Massacre was horrible, European Empires will have undoubtedly brushed whatever they were doing in the colonies under a table, some to a large extent.