AHC: Britain becomes analogue of Imperial Japan

[Elfwine]

Would you take that chance with your country people and daughters?

Yes, for the same reason that I don't wear a suit of armor at the grocery store.

Did you know there was a number of cases of japanese people trying to get themselves redcognized as whites so they could be protected under the same rights and ideals?

But i am not saying any of this justifies anything japan did only the west should recognized its biggotry's influence in the result and not just say the japanmese did it wrong.

Source?

The West should not recognize any such thing, because it is not responsible for Japan's actions and beliefs.

 

[RainbowDoubleDash]

Nor does this explain, let alone excuse, Japan's own atrocities.

My excuse has always been this: their technology and their reach advanced faster than their culture. Japan of the 1830s was an iron age, feudal civilization. Japan of a hundred years later was a modern world power (or at least it was regarded as such). You can't advance that far that fast and expect a culture's moral standards to be able to keep up.

Nothing that the Japanese did would have been considered out-of-place by a medieval army on the warpath. Because on a fundamental level, that's what the Japanese culture still was: Medieval, just adapted to the 20th century.

 

[Elfwine]

My excuse has always been this: their technology and their reach advanced faster than their culture. Japan of the 1830s was an iron age, feudal civilization. Japan of a hundred years later was a modern world power (or at least it was regarded as such). You can't advance that far that fast and expect a culture's moral standards to be able to keep up.

Nothing that the Japanese did would have been considered out-of-place by a medieval army on the warpath. Because on a fundamental level, that's what the Japanese culture still was: Medieval, just adapted to the 20th century.

I think it went beyond that. Again, "comfort women". That's beyond medieval into downright nasty.

But it certainly seems like a consequence of technology racing ahead of social developments, if not quite as extreme as you put it.

 

[RainbowDoubleDash]

I think it went beyond that. Again, "comfort women". That's beyond medieval into downright nasty.

To an extent, I just think of it as Medieval army on the warparth transplanted into the 20th century: "Rape, pillage, and burn." Basically it's just an industrialization of that first part.

Not that this excuses it.

 

[Derekc2]

I think it went beyond that. Again, "comfort women". That's beyond medieval into downright nasty.

But it certainly seems like a consequence of technology racing ahead of social developments, if not quite as extreme as you put it.

I don't know...it would seem to not be out of place in the 30 years war, at least how the 30 years war is shown in 1632. And that was in the "early modern period". So I have to say that it would be quite medieval. Still evil and unexcusanable but still in the medieval way of thinking.

 

[Elfwine]

I don't know...it would seem to not be out of place in the 30 years war, at least how the 30 years war is shown in 1632. And that was in the "early modern period". So I have to say that it would be quite medieval. Still evil and unexcusanable but still in the medieval way of thinking.

The thing is, it's one thing to have soldiers acting out of control. It's another thing entirely to have something organized and set up to provide that.

I've only read part of 1632, but I'm kind of feeling that reading the rest would bother the historian in me.

 

[Kaptin Kurk]

Japan is farther away from the mainland Asian coast than Britain is from Europe's. While the island analogy is of some value, Japan was more isolated than Britain ever was, and British pirates would have been crushed by a European Continental alliance much sooner than Japanese.

(Which brings me to another interesting topic.Why is shortening the name of Asians generally considered a racial insult. As an American, calling Natives or indians Nats or Ins doesn't reallty translate, nor caling black people Blas. (Negroes, nigs, yeah, but probably not Negs.) But calling asian people Japs, Paks, Chi's, ect, real offensive. It's wierd to me how that developed, but maybe someone can explain. Closest thing I imagine is Hebe is short for Hebrew, and I think some Jews find that offensive. But why is shortining a name / ethncity just sound like shortening in some cases, and like disrespect not others?

 

[Derekc2]

The thing is, it's one thing to have soldiers acting out of control. It's another thing entirely to have something organized and set up to provide that.

I've only read part of 1632, but I'm kind of feeling that reading the rest would bother the historian in me.

Still read it, it's an awesome story.

 

[RainbowDoubleDash]

(Which brings me to another interesting topic.Why is shortening the name of Asians generally considered a racial insult. As an American, calling Natives or indians Nats or Ins doesn't reallty translate, nor caling black people Blas. (Negroes, nigs, yeah, but probably not Negs.) But calling asian people Japs, Paks, Chi's, ect, real offensive. It's wierd to me how that developed, but maybe someone can explain. Closest thing I imagine is Hebe is short for Hebrew, and I think some Jews find that offensive. But why is shortining a name / ethncity just sound like shortening in some cases, and like disrespect not others?

It's all in how it's used. Basically, "Japs" was used with the intention of insulting the Japanese, and so the Japanese (quite rightly) see it as an insult.

 

[Kaptin Kurk]

It's all in how it's used. Basically, "Japs" was used with the intention of insulting the Japanese, and so the Japanese (quite rightly) see it as an insult.

Maybe, although I tend to think that terms of 'endearment' that arise when two nations are actively at war may or may not be the product of deeper malice than He's trying to blow my head off and I'm trying to blow his head off. Though, I suppose it'd be interesting to see if any U.S. officials or U.S. people used Jap as a shorthand for Japenese before the war. While that would make sense to me, I don't know.

 

[Elfwine]

Maybe, although I tend to think that terms of 'endearment' that arise when two nations are actively at war may or may not be the product of deeper malice than He's trying to blow my head off and I'm trying to blow his head off. Though, I suppose it'd be interesting to see if any U.S. officials or U.S. people used Jap as a shorthand for Japenese before the war. While that would make sense to me, I don't know.

Yes.

Long story short, the Eureka Nevada Railroad had a car that it labeled "This car for dogs and Japs." in a move that was basically intended to blackmail the US into sending a check it was owed.

The railroad got the check in the end, but the initial response pointed out that the term was not exactly seen as positive.

 

[Zuvarq]

Well the only thing required for the scenario is that Britain goes on a war of conquest throughout the coasts of Europe. It doesn't have to have all the facets of the imperial Japanese expansion, just a general militarist nationalist feel.

Perhaps Britain goes communist for some reason. All of Europe basically teams up against them and strips them of their colonies, punishing them like Germany was in WWI. Though Britain would lose a lot of people and much of its navy (like any invasion of a highly defendable island by half a continent would cause), Brits from the colonies and the White Dominions would probably return to assist their home country. Twenty years later with a refurbished navy and fascist or communist leader, the Brits first reconquer Ireland, puppetizing it, then invading the coast of France and further areas.

Or maybe a France-Spain-Italy trio goes communist. After the old powers declare war on the new leftist nations, a repeat of the Napoleonic Wars happens. The Brits are the chief force fighting against the alliance. They are also fuelled by anti-Catholicism and Francophobia making their actions in war more antagonistic.

 

[mightfly]

And the Japanese believing that what happened in the 12th century is relevant today (well, then, but "today" as of their decisions) is a bad judgment.

And honestly, what the Soviets did or didn't do when they took Berlin is irrelevant. As are the Nazis. Japan as of (say) 1930 has events as of up to 1930 to consider, not afterwards.

Yet those were the people they knew and dealt with if we coexisted which such jerks we would be trying to acquire the power to opose them or at least protect ourselves.

And if you have any evidence of examples of something like "comfort women" - not individuals engaging in nastiness but official, widespread practice - I would like to see them.

Heck forced prostitution survives today and you want examples to show it was around in the early twenith century. It was not illegal for a slave master to rape a slave for the longest time then jimcrow era saw little to no freedom of black women to report assaults if the attacker was white. I don't know what went on in india or europe's african colonies but i doubt it was much better. With the ideas of social darwinism about.

The Western peoples certainly did their fair share of atrocities, but that doesn't defend, justify, or explain Japan's. It just tries to change the subject.

i am just saying it does at least explain it somewhat not fully though.


Convince me a japanese person would not expect such treatment if the soviets had taken japan first.

Anyway were going off topic way off topic this is suppose to be about england i could see the fear to push Britain to want a barrier against attack popping up if maybe a large western african nation(or several) arises technologically and decide they want revenge on the europeans and begins to amass power but that would have to start in the mid nineteenth century and modernize to present a valid threat. Maybe wars of revenge against the dutch, portaguese and spain are launched and Madrid burned by african armies in 1909?

 

[Delvestius]

Elfwine, if none of these explanations suite you, I'm curious as to how you explain the actions of the Imperial Japanese Army?

 

[Zuvarq]

Anyway were going off topic way off topic this is suppose to be about england i could see the fear to push Britain to want a barrier against attack popping up if maybe a large western african nation(or several) arises technologically and decide they want revenge on the europeans and begins to amass power but that would have to start in the mid nineteenth century and modernize to present a valid threat. Maybe wars of revenge against the dutch, portaguese and spain are launched and Madrid burned by african armies in 1909?

Any African nation lucky enough to modernize to the level of European nations by the end of the 19th century would be a close ally in at least one European power and would have had mostly friendly relations with them.

But malaria and climate makes an African great power in 1900 nearly impossible unless the POD is 600+ years earlier.

Yet those were the people they knew and dealt with if we coexisted which such jerks we would be trying to acquire the power to opose them or at least protect ourselves.

Heck forced prostitution survives today and you want examples to show it was around in the early twenith century. It was not illegal for a slave master to rape a slave for the longest time then jimcrow era saw little to no freedom of black women to report assaults if the attacker was white. I don't know what went on in india or europe's african colonies but i doubt it was much better. With the ideas of social darwinism about.

i am just saying it does at least explain it somewhat not fully though.

Convince me a japanese person would not expect such treatment if the soviets had taken japan first.

I don't think Japan at that time would give much consideration to anything west of Bengal unless it pertained directly to them or their enemies. Especially anything in Africa. They too were racist against blacks and once had slaves, though they were few and far between.

 

[Elfwine]

Yet those were the people they knew and dealt with if we coexisted which such jerks we would be trying to acquire the power to opose them or at least protect ourselves.

Speaking as a European-American, one can do that without doing what Japan is faulted for.

Zuwarq: How is Europe going to beat the the Royal Navy like that?

And I'm not sure how anti-Catholicism plays a role in facing Communist France/Spain/Italy.

 

[Zuvarq]

Zuwarq: How is Europe going to beat the the Royal Navy like that?

By being all of Europe . (Well, all the great powers).

 

[Kaptin Kurk]

Yes.

Long story short, the Eureka Nevada Railroad had a car that it labeled "This car for dogs and Japs." in a move that was basically intended to blackmail the US into sending a check it was owed.

The railroad got the check in the end, but the initial response pointed out that the term was not exactly seen as positive.

Okay, good information. I won't derail the thread anymore.

 

[Elfwine]

Okay, good information. I won't derail the thread anymore.

It's amazing what obscure factoids one can dig up with effort.

I think this was worth the slight derail (. . . oh god the puns . . .).

Going back to Britain as an analogue to Imperial Japan, given that Britain's situation is nowhere like Japan's, why would it?

 

[Zuvarq]

Maybe if Britain loses several colonies at once and becomes revanchist. If British colonists return to the motherland, this also gives extra possible soldiers. Then some European conflict begins, with one of the enemy powers bombing the coast of Britain like OTL WWII.

The Allies did commit some atrocities even though much less than the Axis. And really hated the Nazis and Germans by the end of the war. If there is less popular support for the invaders in the attacked areas (British invasion of fascist or communist French-owned France instead of Nazi-occupied France) and the invasion is thus even more drawn-out, we could see a brutal British war of conquest.

Going back to Britain as an analogue to Imperial Japan, given that Britain's situation is nowhere like Japan's, why would it?

Similar results don't always have the same starting conditions.